Nick Desrocher

ndesrocher

Kiplinger’s Retirement Report | Volume 30 | Number 3

February 8, 2023 2022, Media No comments

Alina Tugend

March 2023

About a dozen years ago, a video of two silver-haired seniors fruitlessly trying to figure out Skype—not knowing their webcam was on—made the internet rounds. The unintentionally comic bit, one viewer commented, showed why technology was “geriatric kryptonite.”

A lot has changed since then. Nonetheless, the image of a senior fumbling helplessly with a computer or smartphone is still a persistent trope.

While the digital divide between older and younger people is narrowing, it is still too wide; 99% of those between 18 and 20 use the internet, while 75% of those 65 and older use it, according to an analysis by the Pew Research Center.

And the pandemic had a paradoxical effect on this divide: It helped many of those who successfully navigated Zoom or ordered online groceries, for example, to feel more comfortable with the virtual world, but it also highlighted how urgent the need is for older adults to acquire technological literacy.

For the full article: https://store.kiplinger.com/about-kiplingers-retirement-report.html

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The discussion is not meant to provide any legal, tax, or investment advice with respect to the purchase of an insurance product. A comprehensive evaluation of a consumer’s needs and financial situation should always occur in order to help determine if an insurance product may be appropriate for each unique situation.

Episode 180: Planning for a Purpose with Joe Jordan

February 3, 2023 2023, Joe Jordan, Podcast, Retirement 1 comment

Our guest this week is Joe Jordan. Do I need to say more? But I will. In today’s episode, we discuss how the insurance industry has progressed from a focus on sales to a focus on planning. Joe explains why he thinks the next step will be to focus on helping create purpose for our clients in retirement.

Links mentioned in the show:

https://joejordan.com

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Episode Transcript

paul_tyler:
I, this is Paul Tyler and welcome to.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

paul_tyler:
Another episode of that annuity show. Bruno. How.

bruno_caron:
Oh.

paul_tyler:
Are you.

bruno_caron:
I’m very good. thank you. How are you.

paul_tyler:
Good? Tis great.

bruno_caron:
Good.

paul_tyler:
To have you here again.

tisa_rabun_marshall:
Thanks. good morning. everyone.

paul_tyler:
Ramsey. We’ve got great show lined up with a great guest. Do you want to talk about? Do the intro.

ramsey_d_smith:
Sure, so, as always, very happy to be here and delighted to be joined by one of the lions of our industry. Joe Jordan, Joe is somebody that’s been in the industry a long time. He started on Wall Street, and then had a very long and illustrious career at Met Life, and now he travels the world talking about what it means to be in this business and facing customers, and really kind of tying together.

paul_tyler:
H.

ramsey_d_smith:
Both.

paul_tyler:
H.

ramsey_d_smith:
The qualitative and the qualitative. Sorry, the quality, the quantitative reasons that we do what we do, And so his message is an important one. He just was telling us how he variously was in in the Middle West, then in the Middle East, and then back in the Midwest again, all in the space of about five days. and that is the. that is the life of Joe Jordan, travelling the world and spreading the message. So Joe, very glad to have you on today.

paul_tyler:
Sorry.

joseph_jordan:
Thank.

paul_tyler:
Joe.

joseph_jordan:
You for having.

paul_tyler:
Middle East, was that Ohio.

ramsey_d_smith:
Yeah.

joseph_jordan:
No, Is bay, rude man.

ramsey_d_smith:
Ye. yeah.

joseph_jordan:
I went from up state, New York, to Bay route, then to then to Kansas, City, then to then to New.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
Jersey, and then to know Braska, So that was quite a trip.

ramsey_d_smith:
So where should we? Where should we get started here? Joe? tell us. tell us a little bit about. You know where you see where you see the state of the world. One of the things that you talk about a lot is how the role of the role of an advisor is is changing How it may be different in the next ten or twenty years than it’s been in the last ten or twenty years. What are some of the reasons for that and what some one thinks you’re like, the highlight and your your discussions.

joseph_jordan:
Well, you know, my background, as you have stated was, I was a life age and I ran insurance sales at Pain Webber, And.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
Then there’s a lot of young.

ramsey_d_smith:
M.

joseph_jordan:
People out there.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
That is okay. it was. It’s a wire house on Wall Street, And then I went to Met Life and built their annuity business and had all retail product development. And then I got involved in the financial Anning organization, so I had a very good scope of what financial services look like. An. Frankly when I did it, as I did it, I wasn’t very pleased with it. I didn’t think we were. I don’t think we were as clients centric as other other industries were, and I thought there’d be consequences for that. So the tact I took originally was years ago Was I wrote a book, living a.

ramsey_d_smith:
M.

joseph_jordan:
Life of significance. I don’t think that we talk enough in our culture About the impact that we have out there is the impact that we have on people and the importance of what we do. You know, it’s all about us, and he and I think that’s why you got De l and all those others, So I’m trying to. I was trying to change the culture and talking more about. You know the importance of as I said, what we do, and one of the things that I neglected. as I didn’t realize, So I wrote Life a significance for advisors. What I didn’t know was that’s what clients want.

ramsey_d_smith:
Yeah.

joseph_jordan:
And you have a couple of things converging. You have this longevity, Sami. that is coming together. You know to me that to me that’s the biggest biggest issue the planet faces. I don’t think it’s global whelming. It’s the aging population of the world. The fact that you have a huge number of people who are older and are very small, and you have few babies being born. So you have small working age population with this massive retirement, then I think that’s the major issue And so if you think.

bruno_caron:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
About it, that’s what our business does. It addresses that major issue that that we have. So.

ramsey_d_smith:
M.

joseph_jordan:
Again, I thought that was there and the other. The other thing that finally came together. And the problem with me is I’m pretty much a futurist, so I know what’s going to happen ten years from now.

ramsey_d_smith:
Yeah.

joseph_jordan:
It’s just Wednesday that I have a problem, you know, so sometimes I’m.

ramsey_d_smith:
M.

joseph_jordan:
Too far out in front of it, But one of the things that I’ve been I’ve been been talking about is this idea of purpose driven retirement planning, and I’ll tell you how it came to me. It started coming to me because I had one part of the formula for So for the other part of the formula started with Mitch Anthony, I don’t know a lot of you. I mean, he’s really a great visionary. Back in May.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
Of eighteen, he was in Financial Advisor Magazine and he talked about emotion driven Planning will accelerate soon. he said, The old premises. You have enough money In the new premise is, are you managing.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
Your money in a way that improves your life.

ramsey_d_smith:
My.

joseph_jordan:
So he was putting a priority on the way people live. And so that got my wheels turning. This was.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
Back in eighteen, and then it’s the idea of purpose driven retirement planning in the basically states is that those that retire to something, so listen, those that retire to something are happier than those people who retire from something. So all of all of the impetus that’s put behind our programs and everything is talking about the money. It’s the left brain. It’s the dollars and sense, it’s not about what’s meaning and purpose that you’re going to have, And that was the thing I was trying to enboandstill do with advisers. To.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
Say you know, you’re really virtually.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
Critical to the people you deal with. not just now from a standpoint if someone dies early or dies too soon, But now it’s the idea of living too long and without your tutelage, How are they going to get through this thing with it with an age wave that we’ve never experienced before, and one of the things that I’ve seen was that people, some people think that retirement will be this one pleasurable experience.

ramsey_d_smith:
M.

joseph_jordan:
And you see all the commercials. You know. They’re walking on the beach. You know, looking at each other. I like you know. the real thing is, you know, after six months of that stuff, they’re ready to put a gun to the head. You know, they get bored stiff and it’s there you know. one of the astronits said. At best he said, If you think going to the moon is hard, try staying home so so think about that, you know, and.

ramsey_d_smith:
M.

joseph_jordan:
And and and and it gets there. And you know.

ramsey_d_smith:
M, oh.

joseph_jordan:
I shouldn’t be searching for pleasure because pleasure cannot be sustained beyond the activity sustaining it. but happiness and fulfilment are sustainable, and so I think that people in the future.

ramsey_d_smith:
M.

joseph_jordan:
Are going to be looking for more than just the numbers. And so you know, I never come to these conclusions. The bell goes off and there it is. It’s always this journey. I think I’m You know, when you’re inspired, you know what? when you’re motivated, you drive it. When you’re inspired it drives you. So then then I ran across this thing from Mackenzey. It was a report.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
Two thousand twenty, and Mackenzie, said Tenue, As advisers will gradually shed their role as investment managers and become more like integrated life wealth coaches. And so what I think is beginning to happen is where the business begins to mortis, a tighter relationship and more in line with the things about print, preparing people for the fact that you’re going to have a major change in your life, and at all ain’t goin to be pleasurable unless you’re doing something significant and worth while and have a purpose. So you know that was like a revelation to me. And and then what happened? as I spoke at Advisor Group and there I am this. Like three thousand reps in the Co, gets up and says, The thing I was.

ramsey_d_smith:
Yeah.

joseph_jordan:
Proudest of all of you during this pandemic, is.

ramsey_d_smith:
M.

joseph_jordan:
You operated more like life coaches than just numbers guys. So I really.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
Think that that’s kind of the future. So if you just think about it okay and so I’m really talking about the future. It’s not something.

ramsey_d_smith:
M.

joseph_jordan:
You should drop everything today, but I think we have to start evolving.

ramsey_d_smith:
M.

joseph_jordan:
To that. you know, the way.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
I saw it, I got started seventy four everything wash sales and I do not deprecate sales. Don’t get me wrong. You got to learn how to sell. You got to learn the words. You got to do all of those things. They have to be there. Then we went to a planning pardon, But a planning paradime is very much numbers oriented.

ramsey_d_smith:
Yeah.

joseph_jordan:
And it’s said it’s uh, you know, left brain kind of analytical thing, and people don’t connect with that. They don’t make decisions. you know, predicated on that and Paul, you, you saw it right, you know, there was great when we had.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
This thing and met life. It was the mature market institute. It was fabulous and got quoted all over the place. Of course we blew it up. You know, you know it works so well. We stopped doing it. You know.

paul_tyler:
Why not? Why.

joseph_jordan:
Why.

paul_tyler:
Not.

joseph_jordan:
Not.

paul_tyler:
Stop.

ramsey_d_smith:
M.

joseph_jordan:
Let’s blow that one of you know. well, say a million box and you know.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
Anyway. So.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
What what they did is? they measured, and I think it’s crucial that you know what clients are wanting where they’re going, and that’s why we have to go. So they were measuring the relative importance of four themes. The four themes were money, medicine, meaning and place. So what what they found out was that money is less important as people age. Now that meaning is most important no matter what age. And so you know that’s kind of leaving in that direction. So my advice to everyone on is you know people come up with these revelations and they’re not in the business itself, So now what the hell? O? I do? you know? Well, there’s a couple of books out there that I think everybody listening to this broadcast could get, and one of them.

ramsey_d_smith:
Yes.

joseph_jordan:
Is Mitch Anthony’s life.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
Scented planet, And I’ll tell you why it provides all the great information on how to alter your practice to the new paradox. It asks all the questions. He’s got it all done. the work he’s got to twist away from what your risk tolerance. How the hell do you know your.

ramsey_d_smith:
Yeah.

joseph_jordan:
Risk tolerance is? Well, I don’t want to lose on your mother, you know, so I mean.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
It’s not the way people talk to each other, so he’s got all of these.

ramsey_d_smith:
M.

joseph_jordan:
Things that are in there where you can start graduating the conversation towards what do you think you’re going to later in life? And so I urge everyone to get that he’s mapped it out for everybody. and it’s there Mitch Anthony, life centered planet. The other one is, I just bumped into this recently for clients to read Is by Garry crack, s, r, a k, and he.

ramsey_d_smith:
M.

joseph_jordan:
Is a A in Ohio with the Guardian and he wrote a book like this title How.

paul_tyler:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
To retire and not die well.

paul_tyler:
Hey.

joseph_jordan:
As you.

paul_tyler:
By the way.

ramsey_d_smith:
M. Oh.

paul_tyler:
Joe, He was a.

joseph_jordan:
Yes.

paul_tyler:
Guest on our show.

joseph_jordan:
Oh Garry was.

paul_tyler:
We had.

joseph_jordan:
Oh.

paul_tyler:
Garry.

joseph_jordan:
Wow.

paul_tyler:
On.

joseph_jordan:
You guys. are.

paul_tyler:
Yeah.

joseph_jordan:
You know? I just got to throw you a compliment, Paul. I don’t know how the hell.

ramsey_d_smith:
Yeah.

joseph_jordan:
You pull this thing together when I was first looking, I said What the hell you’re doing? I know a lot of people who listen to this thing and it’s a valuable service and you know it’s a great place for people.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
To just discuss the stuff.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
Of what it is. So it’s there. I’m glad you got Garrion, because I love this book. You know, He’s a practitioner. Okay, So he’s He’s a guy who’s in the business. He’s been in it a long time, So he’s worked through.

ramsey_d_smith:
M.

joseph_jordan:
All of the people that he’s had clients for years, and he just discusses these stories and that that’s the major thing you know. this business is not is not a story of numbers. It’s the number of stories, because people can lock into that and understand what has happened. Don’t understand the number. You know. the denomoclature and all of the stuff like that. So what Garry talks about is the three peas and the three pies are. Passion is the first one and passion is what. So he’s preparing you. Now he’s preparing you and he’s talking. you know, to anybody who’s thinking about retiring is you should go by the three pies, and the first one is. Passion is what you do for you. Follow your bliss, Joseph Campbell’s famous quote, You know, Follow your bliss. And so that’s what he’s talking about, and he says, passion is what you do for yourself. This purpose is what you do for others. and I love that you know what I mean. This society is so wrapped up. It’s about mmmimimi all the time. and really it’s the idea of purpose is something that you do for someone else. I heard. I heard a great definition of purpose was at a million dollar round table. Sometimes you get hit with gems and they stick with you forever. and as a lady, and she said.

ramsey_d_smith:
M.

joseph_jordan:
Purpose is not the thing you do listen. purpose is the thing that purpose is not the thing you do. It’s what happens inside of others. You going to do what you do? So think about that, it’s not what. when you’re in purpose, it’s the idea of helping others and we got to get back to that you know as a.

ramsey_d_smith:
M.

joseph_jordan:
Society, and bind it together.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
And that’s your purpose to be there is to make that happened. he says, Plan is what people need.

ramsey_d_smith:
M.

joseph_jordan:
And that’s the thing that people don’t have. So before everyone was hitting you over the head saying you got a plan. You got a plan. You. For what.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
Well, the fact of the matter.

ramsey_d_smith:
Yeah.

joseph_jordan:
Is you got to prepare yourself now for retirement, Because people go lose things when they retire, you know.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
And they don’t believe it. Okay, they lose a routine, they lose an identity.

ramsey_d_smith:
M.

joseph_jordan:
They lose relations, they lose purpose and they lose power. I used to be in zoo. Now know one knows who the hell I am. I’m Doctor Robin. It, remember me, you know, So it’s a major thing and people.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
Don’t know that up front, you know. they just say I can’t wait till I play golf every day until I go nuts, so they need to really re invent themselves and look, I’ve seen it Okay. I’ve seen it. you know, I’m seventy one years old.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
So I know a lot of guys who retired now a while back, you know, and most of them are all picked off. You know, they talk about.

ramsey_d_smith:
Um.

joseph_jordan:
The job they didn’t get. You know. Seven.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
Years go like it happened yesterday, you know, and they’re all moping around and you see I’m out there. Get off my lawn. you know, so.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
I think that’s something that really is.

ramsey_d_smith:
M.

joseph_jordan:
I think the next move. So.

ramsey_d_smith:
Yeah.

joseph_jordan:
Also it differentiator. all of our.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
Products are commoditized. You know that they’re all commoditized. You’re walking to a financial.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
Services saying it’s all the same. How do you make it different? How do you make it different.

ramsey_d_smith:
M.

joseph_jordan:
So I think these two books. So I’m not just leaving your flat to try to figure it out on your own. Get the two bloody books and start moving in that direction, because inexorably, it’s moving that.

ramsey_d_smith:
M.

joseph_jordan:
As far as you know, as far as I’m concerned, so I would. I would tell people to go out and and get those two books. And I think I think that’s a great differentiator for us. There’s no one else well suited you know to that together. By the way, In Garry’s book, he talks about people. You know. Some of the people who are most well off and most successful are the most miserable in retirement. And you know what happened. The other thing that exaccibates this, The other thing that exaccibates This is isolation. isolation kills. Social media was supposed to bring us together. It actually has separated us. Okay, Yale, It a study and found out the more people use Facebook, the worse they feel no one post the dog died, Or you know they had. They had an automobile action or whatever. It’s all this stuff that everyone knows. It’s half right, you know, and it is not there. There’s a new thing to now. it’s pomo. Fear of missing out. people now are putting their whole self esteem predicated on what some other people say and social media says. Well, you’ll never be alone. How to hell figure what you’re going to do with your life? If you’re not alone, you know, I mean it. It’s contrary, so it hasn’t brought people together. It’s isolated them and medicine has found out that isolation is the new smoking. It’s equivalent to smoking fifteen cigarettes a day. People who feel isolated and don’t have meaning and purpose. What happens is is they follow and they die early, so that’s an issue. So to me, okay, this is a new thing. Financial Advisers to grab that role because no one could take it away from and no one is going to say so, Let.

bruno_caron:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
Your fee. How much is? Of course you worked.

bruno_caron:
Okay.

joseph_jordan:
That. I’ll find that you know you didn’t perform so well this quarter. You know all. That’s so again. I don’t say, re invent yourself overnight. Get the books start. Go in that direction and that’s why I’m stoked. So I always believed in the idea of living a significant life. I just left clan. It’s out and meaning and purpose is important and I think we need to go somewhat in that direction.

bruno_caron:
Well, it’s I find it amazing that you know everything you started.

joseph_jordan:
A.

bruno_caron:
Off with. You know the demographic environment, demography, and people living longer, and having that new generation impacts not only the financial situation of every single individual but society. He’s and I’m not just saying, You know, in this in the Us. in in the Middle East, Europe everywhere, it is just uh. everything is. It is changing according to this to this new norm.

joseph_jordan:
Ah.

bruno_caron:
So how you know? what advice do you have for this younger generation of you know advisors who are coming in and are not necessarily you know. Here. Re definitely hearing the words of wisdom of the you know, the older generation.

joseph_jordan:
Okay, right.

bruno_caron:
But it’s a new environment. There’s new challenges both societal and financial were. obviously, I think the good place begin would be those. those two books are three if I include yours, But where else? and what else you have in mind there in order to have a a good fulfilled career for the young agents.

joseph_jordan:
I think this is it is that with this demographics is the future that can’t be changed. Okay, Japan is going to lose half its population by the end of the century and they can’t change it. And so that’s the stuff that’s going on. So those are the. Those are. That’s going to be the main driver. Think, look at China, this the first time that Pope, as down is going to fall like a rock. And you know the you know, Do you know that November of last year the eight billionth person was born, And you know what the Un said? It’s another carbon generating curse. They’re talking about him being. for Christ’s sake.

bruno_caron:
Uh.

joseph_jordan:
All of human history has been predicated on the idea of innovation overcoming.

bruno_caron:
M.

joseph_jordan:
Obstacles. They had, you know.

bruno_caron:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
I’ll get back to your question again, but I’m just trying to gild the lily Are okay, The know that in the eighteen nineties there was a meeting of all of the people, high, high officials of different cities from all over the world, and they came to New York. You know what? that big problem was, horseman. It was all over the place, you know, and they’re trying to figure out how to clean it up. Well, what happened? We invented cars and that went away, and that created other problems. So we always create problems, and then we innovate and make it happen. In more people we have the better off we are. We’re not going to have that luxury going forward. So what that means and you’re going to live longer than you’re may not live healthily longer, so we’ve got to need someone like in a financial advice, so to be there, to be certain that you, as an individual, meaning a client right, will be able to weather that storm and do it so that I just think generates the importance of what we do. So I’m not saying that plannings out. No planning was the evolution from sales that used to be sales that go in. Have a couple of you know the words, and and then you buy the thing you know which you didn’t know. It was in context to other stuff, and people are saying. So that was the evolute and I saw it when, when I, when I, when I went to Pain Webber from home life, they wanted to sell insurance. not because of client need, they wanted to diversify their revenue. Strain. The fact of the matter, his clients want to deal with just one type one person. So I think the idea, and still, even though the demographics of aging is new, people do die. everyone dies. I did the research. I found it out, and sometimes people die young. Okay, so that has to be part of the plan, But that’s not the only product than you have to prepare for the future, and Nick Murray says Yo. yo. You’re on your own, so you’re going to see more and more of that because governments cannot keep up if they have the small working base. They’re not going to have the tax base to be able to do this. People are gonna have to be able to do on an individual basis, so I think this is the most important profession that someone can do because of the fact that you can prepare people and then make certain that they.

bruno_caron:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
Have independence and dignity when they get older, and also protection. You know, they protect their families. It’s there and so all of the products have to be used.

ramsey_d_smith:
So I have. I have a question about how we get there so obviously.

bruno_caron:
Oh.

ramsey_d_smith:
There’s an evolution right, so it may be in a few things. It may mean that that the people wait bringing to this industry are different than the ones we had in the past. Um, so I’m curious what your thoughts are about about that? Like, what is the you know? are we? Does this mean that we’re going to be looking for different person alities and different skill sets in in this business going forward. And then I have a. I have a follow or question about some organizations you mentioned in a recent article.

joseph_jordan:
It’s an interesting. It’s an interesting comment. I don’t know if we need different people. I don’t know that.

ramsey_d_smith:
Yeah.

joseph_jordan:
Um, you know, people still have to survive to a people still have to.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
Survive through rejection.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
And.

ramsey_d_smith:
Hm.

joseph_jordan:
So that’s My thought was inspiring people to see the importance.

ramsey_d_smith:
M.

joseph_jordan:
Of what you do means that you got your meaning and purpose you could overcome that I don’t. I don’t know so much.

ramsey_d_smith:
M.

joseph_jordan:
If we need the types of people. I think we perhaps need a better position of what our business is. I think we need to bring in the fact of the stories of the impact we can have, and I know that sometimes people you know they’re starting out, You know that’s hard to really grasp at what have you? But I think we have to constantly repeat the importance of what we do because Congress doesn’t think we do it. The senator from Massachusetts doesn’t think we do it. Okay. They think we’re all a bunch hampson at, you know, and that’s that’s a big risk because you.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
Know what will happen is as they can legislate this thing so so much that.

ramsey_d_smith:
Yeah.

joseph_jordan:
It’s a question of control. so I mean, I have to think some more about that. I’m glad you brought it up. I don’t know that we need different types of people. I think we need different positionings in terms of what we do, and I also think we have to get ourselves off of the product bias. You know, we all seem to have an orientation And really it’s the plan that comes out. What. I, what I also think is we have to get more involved with story telling.

ramsey_d_smith:
Yeah.

joseph_jordan:
Just fact driven type of approaches. And so I think that’s another fundamental change that we need to do. I don’t know that we need different people, but you know.

bruno_caron:
M.

joseph_jordan:
Ramsey. I’m glad you brought that up because you got my wheels turn and I got to think about that.

ramsey_d_smith:
So one of the things that you mentioned in this this article that I thought was really interesting is you talked about some organizations that you speak to fraternal organizations, and.

joseph_jordan:
M.

ramsey_d_smith:
How they have a very different relationship there with the customers. And I thought about it. We’re trying to move this needle and change and change the process. It takes a lot doing it one client and one agent at a time. But if you can affiliate with organization that’ve already cracked this code, there’s something there, so tell us about what you see in fraternal organizations that feels different than what you see in the broader, the broader sort of world here.

joseph_jordan:
Well, I work.

ramsey_d_smith:
Yeah.

joseph_jordan:
With some of them and you know.

ramsey_d_smith:
Hm.

joseph_jordan:
Like nights at Columbus, you know, and.

ramsey_d_smith:
Yeah.

joseph_jordan:
A thriving.

ramsey_d_smith:
No.

joseph_jordan:
And there’s a group called G. B. That’s There’s hundreds of these things are all over the place and you get underneath their. So they have insurance products. He sell investments. You know that’s that’s part of their own. They have all of these other programs that you know.

ramsey_d_smith:
M.

joseph_jordan:
So for example, and I’m talking about the idea of.

ramsey_d_smith:
Yeah.

joseph_jordan:
Health having.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
Meaning and purpose. you know.

ramsey_d_smith:
Yeah.

joseph_jordan:
The.

ramsey_d_smith:
Uh.

joseph_jordan:
Nights at Columbus store.

ramsey_d_smith:
H.

joseph_jordan:
You know, Have these different programs you know, Giving coach to kids. They already have built in a number of programs that they have. It also helps people, so it’s like a one stop shop. Oh, not that everybody would gravitate towards the things they do, but they’re there. there they exist. There’s a group out there called G B U. and they have this thing that. if you go to a righteous charitable organization, they match your contribution up to a certain amount, so think about that. Okay, So you give two thousand dollars to the soup kitchen Okay in Minnesota, and making it up they match it so man doesn’t. So there’s a motivation there for someone to start doing something that’s outside of themselves. I mean that’s that’s that’s That’s really the essence of what a human being is is the idea of your ability to impact others. And and so they do that. And and I don’t think they’ve grasped how important that is. And perhaps Ramsey, as you’re saying, that might be other things that other organizations might start to do, is to come up with some of these is that would push people towards the idea of being in a given mode. I, either the matching and what it is? So I think that the fraternal organizations have got built them. I don’t. I don’t think they. really. It’s how important that is, and I would hate to see them miss the mark. And perhaps in terms of your question, not so much different people, but may be different, different, um different offerings that, but some of.

ramsey_d_smith:
Ah.

joseph_jordan:
The companies would have.

tisa_rabun_marshall:
So I want to.

ramsey_d_smith:
Thank you.

tisa_rabun_marshall:
Thinks, Um, interesting, Ramsey about needing different.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

tisa_rabun_marshall:
People or different profile of agent. I want to talk a little bit about kind of what that tool or that work sheet might look like not to skirt around reading the books you recommend. But can you help the listeners think a little bit about how they would re frame the question? So you talked about. You know, we don’t want to ask about the risk tolerant, but don’t want to ask about. at least not lead way or start with. You know we don’t want to ask about how much money you need in retirement. What how do those.

joseph_jordan:
Yeah.

tisa_rabun_marshall:
Questions sound differently? Like If we’re looking to drive people to start thinking about their passion or their purpose, can.

joseph_jordan:
Well.

tisa_rabun_marshall:
We.

joseph_jordan:
I.

tisa_rabun_marshall:
Re.

joseph_jordan:
Think.

tisa_rabun_marshall:
Frame.

joseph_jordan:
You do have to ask people.

tisa_rabun_marshall:
Give some examples of some of those questions, or what that tool or work sheet might look like.

joseph_jordan:
When you.

tisa_rabun_marshall:
To walk.

joseph_jordan:
Retire.

tisa_rabun_marshall:
Them though.

joseph_jordan:
What.

tisa_rabun_marshall:
The discussion.

joseph_jordan:
Are you going to do? How are.

tisa_rabun_marshall:
Hm.

joseph_jordan:
You going to spend your time? I’m going to play golf when I would advise you that that might not be the most you’re going to do because you can get really bored. you know. I mean, you been doing this that. and the other thing, What interest do you have? And what is it you really like doing and people, probably people have never really asked that question. You know, What is it.

tisa_rabun_marshall:
Hm.

joseph_jordan:
You really enjoy doing and what is it you absolutely hate doing to make an exploration of that type of stuff? I mean, I think that’s part of the question you see, Because then I think that people get more engaged than that. You know. I really hate writing the notes and doing all of what else do you hate? You know. So I think that really brings people closer together. They have to find out what is it that they really enjoy doing And what is it they don’t? What is it? What is it? They absolut we love. And what is it? They absolutely hate and they should probably not do much of what they hate and do what they what they love doing. But most people haven’t explored that on a personal basis. they might have run a bit this and found out how that ran. But and they probably have some idea of what they’d like to do and what they don’t like to do. Why not segment that out? What’s the thing that really gives you? You know meaning and purpose, And so people haven’t asked that question of themselves. And so I think.

tisa_rabun_marshall:
Yes.

joseph_jordan:
That those are the types of questions and those.

bruno_caron:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
Are laced in. Certainly in Garry’s book, and I think they’re also in Mitchesbook To against it. See what it does it brings. That brings the relationship a little bit close. You know what I mean, and I think you have.

tisa_rabun_marshall:
M.

joseph_jordan:
A competitive edge because you’ve asked things that probably others haven’t And.

tisa_rabun_marshall:
Hm.

paul_tyler:
Yeah.

joseph_jordan:
M, and they don’t understand the financial stuff. In the end of the day, they don’t understand the technothterminologies that we come out with, and they like it to go up. They don’t like it when it goes down, and if it stays the same, they’re not as happy. But you know it’s really the idea. And that was Mitch Anthony’s first quote. Was They want to say how they’re gonna improve their lives, So they haven’t spent the time in the episode of finding out what it is. They really want to do what they really hate doing and get rid of that and do the stuff that they want to do. And so that’s getting back to the fraternal organization. You know, you know, Did you notice if I’m a fraternal guy? right, I’m going to. we have this thing coach for kids, and whatever ye, I should, you know, And then they’re actually doing stuff for others and they have a meaning. Have a place to go and we have it. so I think I think that’s where it starts out, and I think those are the types of questions that people would be asking.

paul_tyler:
Yeah, Joe. it almost feels. In some ways, questions, kind of cheapens it. It’s more. conversation may be a very long conversation. Now, I think you mentioned first word about sales than we’re about plans. Now we’re about a dialogue. that that may change over time When Garry was on here Was interesting. He talked about. as you remember, that conversation almost sounded like he kind of stumbled on to this.

joseph_jordan:
Yeah.

paul_tyler:
After these conversations After due Joe the financial plan. So.

joseph_jordan:
Yeah.

paul_tyler:
You came to me and said, Can I do this? Okay? great, Ere’s your plan, But what else.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

paul_tyler:
Do you want to do? It was almost like an ad on. You Think I could actually start with that conversation.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

paul_tyler:
Or you know, do I? Is that something that I can only do after a longer relay ship with a person.

joseph_jordan:
My sense is you could start it out like that again. It’s like being a life health of a life wealth coach, you know. And and so yeah, that’s what happened. All of the people who really take off do this thing bump into it And it’s not. That’s the point. It’s not part of the training. It’s not part of the direction you know, and it’s not perfected yet. but, but I think you can start off with those conversations because they be a lot more engaging. I think so you know. the other thing that’s important because you, you hit on an important point, right, And it’s the idea of one of the reasons I wrote Life is significant. I read a M. one of those surveys, gallop, gallop, and I looked at the look at Two Thousand Flow, looked at the ethics and believability of different professions.

bruno_caron:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
And the only ones that were above us below us. Excuse me, we’re car salesman and Congress, And you know what the number one was? I can get two thousand twelve.

paul_tyler:
No idea.

bruno_caron:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
Nurses.

paul_tyler:
Interesting.

joseph_jordan:
Isis.

paul_tyler:
Two thousand.

joseph_jordan:
Was the number.

paul_tyler:
Twelve.

tisa_rabun_marshall:
M.

joseph_jordan:
One profession that’s before the.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
Now.

tisa_rabun_marshall:
M.

joseph_jordan:
Ovid, right, So you can imagine where it is now. All of the other ones that were just below it.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
All service organizations, service organizations operate on two foundations. Okay, humility.

ramsey_d_smith:
Yeah.

joseph_jordan:
Maturity, humble people don’t think necessarily, humble people don’t necessarily think less.

ramsey_d_smith:
M.

joseph_jordan:
Of themselves. They just think of themselves. S if your people aren’t necessarily all, if they see things from another person’s perspective, So it’s that it’s that client engagement now. Do I have it perfected now? No, But as you saw, Garry just bumped into it. Garry could.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
Probably put it in front. I think Mitch Anthony is one who has really seen it, You know for there. And and they’re trying to enrich people’s lives, and you can’t commoditize that. So that’s some of the cultural things that I think there. I mean, they’re kind.

ramsey_d_smith:
Yeah.

joseph_jordan:
Of pioneers, and I’m I’m exposing it because again you cannot continue a regulatory point of view of the way people you have to overcome so many things that people have that attitude towards your profession and what you do. I think that’s what we have to overcome, And that’s where I thought a.

bruno_caron:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
Vanguard could be.

bruno_caron:
Yeah.

joseph_jordan:
You know, the fraternal organizations, but I think they’re overwhelmed with trying to be the other way, and I think they have the magic in their back yard. I don’t think they.

paul_tyler:
Yeah.

joseph_jordan:
All understand it.

paul_tyler:
Well, listen ere at the near the top of our time. you know Bruma. Do you have like last question or thought for for Joe.

bruno_caron:
Sure. last question and I think that you know you’ve been very vocal on on the income part that’s required in retirement. You know that’s through annuities through social security, delaying it as much as.

joseph_jordan:
Yeah.

bruno_caron:
You can. All of that concept about income is really at the forefront relative to obviously, the assets or wealth, or however you want to, you.

joseph_jordan:
Oh.

bruno_caron:
Want to describe it. Where do you see or how do you see the income part of retirement as an opportunity for all the professionals and advisors in.

joseph_jordan:
Oh.

bruno_caron:
The financial, the financial services space.

joseph_jordan:
Well, I think it’s essential. you know, we’re in an accumulation paradime, And that’s what drove That sounds like demographics. To me, Baby boom was the.

bruno_caron:
Uh.

joseph_jordan:
Biggest lug When you’re thirty.

bruno_caron:
Uh.

joseph_jordan:
Three years old. You want to talk about self security? I don’t think so.

bruno_caron:
Um.

joseph_jordan:
You know, and then well, you know, Paul. You saw this right when we started the legislative birth dates. everyone’s saying delay so security. What you’re crazy? it’s going away. Take it now. no one had that mind set. so once again and it’s demographics, in terms of the baby boom.

bruno_caron:
M.

joseph_jordan:
Is the pick through the Python right, getting to the point where all of a sudden it’s there needs and everything changes So you know an accumulate on phase is subsilively different from an income stage. You know you don’t have much stuff to come back towards. You have to have some form of guaranteed income. There’s a new thing called mortality credits, which a lot of financial you know, the brokers and the stock brokers and stuff have difficulty dealing with because it’s not a stock and bond is not an interest rate. You know, it’s the idea is measuring human life and the ability to provide you with a guaranteed income for life. And as I said, the whole idea of how much money you have dictates your wealth is the recent phenomena, you know, Jane Austin Rights. He wrote all of those books, the early eighteen hundreds, you know, and was Pride and prejudice you know. Noticed the way she described Mer Darcy, who was the rich guy? She said, she didn’t say At a million pounds, she said, I got ten thousand a year. Historical perspective of wealth has always been on the place.

bruno_caron:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
The reliability of the income. That’s the new R. L. right. it’s not R. Rather not return on investment of reliability income. So it’s all of these alien tools that are not so much known in the accumulation parade coming there, being driven by what ohdemographics, so demographics again is the future that cannot be changed. We now have to regulate its more towards the idea of the income side and all of the new, the new risks that that brings with it you know, the the what quality segments return sequence of return stuff. Look, in the old days, you.

bruno_caron:
Right.

joseph_jordan:
Retired at sixty five. You took a boat to Ireland. You came back and your debt at sixty eight. Okay, okay, but.

bruno_caron:
Uh.

joseph_jordan:
Now your living.

paul_tyler:
Ye.

joseph_jordan:
To eighty. So the fact of the matter is is that.

bruno_caron:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
You got to put something together to make that happen. so the product lines change and having access to a buffer asset that you can set money aside. Or maybe you use a reverse mortgage, or maybe you use a loan, a life insurance policy, So everything you know starts to change And that’s that’s an influence and most people are more interested on making certain that they have a stable retirement income than increasing their wealth. And that’s what the majority of people are saying So so and that’s very. it’s very hard. change a look, Paul, you know this right back in night, Two thousand, For who is the only person out there saying delay. So security was made, You know because I was trying to get people to begin thinking about the idea of using annuities to have a guaranteed lifetime income as a base. And and so you know, it takes a long time. so in two thousand for as a voice in the wilderness. Now you know it’s It’s all over the place. So.

paul_tyler:
Well, and it’s only I think the deal Joe is only going to get better because you know we’ve.

joseph_jordan:
Yet.

paul_tyler:
Been talking to people who’ve said. It won’t be uncommon for people to live to hundred and five. You know, there’s a scientist or a couple of group of scientists who said the first person to live to a hundred and fifty has already been born.

joseph_jordan:
Yeah.

paul_tyler:
About that to you. So what do you tink? Should we? should we change some of our market materials and web pages.

tisa_rabun_marshall:
Yeah, I mean, it’s definitely kind of re framing how we think about retirement. For sure. I’m still sort of stuck on this idea of isolation. you know, being the new, the new chronic issue.

joseph_jordan:
It’s.

tisa_rabun_marshall:
Or.

joseph_jordan:
Here.

tisa_rabun_marshall:
The new.

joseph_jordan:
And.

paul_tyler:
Ifteen.

joseph_jordan:
People.

paul_tyler:
Packs.

joseph_jordan:
People don’t.

paul_tyler:
Fifteen.

tisa_rabun_marshall:
Well.

joseph_jordan:
Reconat.

paul_tyler:
Packs of cigarettes.

tisa_rabun_marshall:
Yeah, well.

joseph_jordan:
Ah.

tisa_rabun_marshall:
And and I guess I think about all ages and how we reacted to quarantine right for the.

joseph_jordan:
Right.

tisa_rabun_marshall:
Twelve months or so where we were all feeling very isolated. So there’s a proof point right there, Just thinking through the solutions for the aging population and the seniors, because I’ve seen it first hand, Isolation is literally.

joseph_jordan:
Yeah.

tisa_rabun_marshall:
A killer, So.

joseph_jordan:
Got.

tisa_rabun_marshall:
You can.

joseph_jordan:
It.

tisa_rabun_marshall:
Have Ll the money. All the money in the.

joseph_jordan:
Yeah.

tisa_rabun_marshall:
World right, do all the.

joseph_jordan:
Right.

tisa_rabun_marshall:
Right things you think through. You’re passing your purpose, But at some point if your day to day is just you on the that’s that’s not very fulfilling. So.

paul_tyler:
Ramsey.

joseph_jordan:
My point is is I want to provide.

paul_tyler:
Yeah.

ramsey_d_smith:
Yeah.

joseph_jordan:
A broader context to what our stuff is, and it’s built around.

tisa_rabun_marshall:
Hm.

ramsey_d_smith:
Yeah.

joseph_jordan:
The life and how things have changed. And and you know, most people who are in the middle of the thing don’t see the forest from the trees, and and isolations. And so that’s what another thing that benefits are. But I’m not celebrating. Million people died, but people really want to sit down and talk to somebody. Everybody thought computers would do this thing like that, You know you. Just, it’s just the way humans are, so I think the future is really bright.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
Again. I started.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
Talking to two thousand Four about delaying social security. How long did that.

tisa_rabun_marshall:
M.

joseph_jordan:
Take right? It took like fifteen years before. Now Every you know, it’s all there, so I think it’s another fifteen years with this stuff. I’m talking about a start and a start is to be talking more about what are people going to do when they retire And then again, my message to Froternals is you guys got one stop shop, So you know, jump on it. And and perhaps I think some of the offerings change over time.

paul_tyler:
Ramsey.

ramsey_d_smith:
So just a couple quick things and one I was going to say that, I think that this notion.

joseph_jordan:
Oh.

ramsey_d_smith:
Of a more of a service services, I should say, orientation in our business, I think is good. I think it’s it translates into better customer experience. I think it’s actually, I think it’s an economic opporty, ity, and I also think it’s great for risk management. I actually think that we treat services and our business s expenses, when in fact there are assets and valuable tools. I think I think we can actually have an entire additional show about that, So Joe, maybe we’ll talk about that the next.

joseph_jordan:
Yeah.

ramsey_d_smith:
Time. But one thing that I wanted that to make sure we did not miss before we go is is taking us through the Ben Franklin close. I thought that was great.

joseph_jordan:
Yeah.

ramsey_d_smith:
That was at the tail end of your tail end of your article. I thought that was a very simple way to help people think about what the value propositi is of what we, what we all in this industry do.

joseph_jordan:
Ah, so so that was? That was the You put the premium down, and then you list of benefits That would.

ramsey_d_smith:
Exactly.

joseph_jordan:
Okay right.

ramsey_d_smith:
Make a tea, But the premium in one.

joseph_jordan:
Right.

ramsey_d_smith:
On one side and on the other side, you list all the benefits.

joseph_jordan:
Right.

ramsey_d_smith:
And then there was there was a punch.

joseph_jordan:
Sure.

ramsey_d_smith:
Line.

paul_tyler:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
So what it simply is is you know you do the brand Franklin crows. You do a t line and then look down in the middle and then then the first one says your meaning, your obligation, and then on the aside you put ours. So your list. the print. I’m gonna make this up. You know, you give someone.

ramsey_d_smith:
M.

joseph_jordan:
You give us.

ramsey_d_smith:
M.

joseph_jordan:
Thousand dollars a year, and or let’s say ten thousand dollars a year, and what we’ll do is we’ll put a step aside a million dollars at it. For some reason you died, your family would get it, and then the other thing we do is we guarantee that if for some reason you got sick and disabled that premium.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
Of ten thousand dols, it would continue to pay, and it would, the program would continue to build, and you’d have that, Kay, the other, the other, The other thing is that if you got sick or disabled as a way of taking some of those.

ramsey_d_smith:
M.

joseph_jordan:
Some of the money out of the policy and being able to provide you with with with with benefit, you know that happens, and you know the living benefits. Now See that’s like.

ramsey_d_smith:
M.

joseph_jordan:
A new thing that popped up. You know, I have a whole thing on living benefits and I was a woman and I’ll never forget man. You talk about it and you see, she’s a young woman and she’s talking about. she. She lives with the parents, but she’s the sole support of the parents and she has a kid and she’s a single mom. She got attacked in a garage and they set up arty on fire. Okay, they really screwed her up and she, she had up a policy and she thought ahead of time and she was able to get four thousand.

ramsey_d_smith:
M.

joseph_jordan:
Dollars out of it to pay all those medical expenses to keep the family in tact o smoke. So that’s that’s like some of the new services you know that comes to that. So you know we could do that and we also can lend you money when you need it at a very low interest rate and on a tax free base. And so, if you’re invested in the stock market, might use it as a buffer asset when the stock market goes down, so that you know so. O. I list all of these different benefits that it has, And then I said.

ramsey_d_smith:
M.

joseph_jordan:
However, so so so one has as ten thousand, and the other has like six or seven or eight or nine of them. However, if you don’t do, don’t do your obligation. You put an x on it, you go over to R, and you put, or it’s your obligation to fulfill all these things, So I think that puts it into perspective. You know, you know the benefits are there, but again, I think the idea of living benefits is another kind of service orientation type thing that’s starting to happen, but it’s got. I think the offerings have to go beyond just products. We have other stuff, but I think you’re on to something, Ramsey.

paul_tyler:
Yeah, well, Joe. thanks.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

paul_tyler:
I think we do your Ben Franklin to what we get for Joe.

joseph_jordan:
Oh.

paul_tyler:
What you cost and what you deliver.

ramsey_d_smith:
M.

joseph_jordan:
Uh.

bruno_caron:
Oh.

paul_tyler:
Joe. It’s.

ramsey_d_smith:
M.

paul_tyler:
I don’t.

joseph_jordan:
Uh.

paul_tyler:
Want to be on my own.

joseph_jordan:
Oh.

paul_tyler:
We do not want to be in our own here. so hey, listen.

ramsey_d_smith:
M.

paul_tyler:
Thanks so much, Joe. We’re gonna have you.

bruno_caron:
M.

paul_tyler:
Back. Okay, we’ll have you.

bruno_caron:
Oh.

paul_tyler:
Back in a couple of months. We think this.

joseph_jordan:
Yeah.

paul_tyler:
Is great. We’ll put the links to your books.

joseph_jordan:
Yeah.

paul_tyler:
And.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

paul_tyler:
Your sight. O people, stay in touch with you and listen. Just thanks for all you’re doing. Really.

joseph_jordan:
Yeah.

paul_tyler:
Appreciate.

ramsey_d_smith:
Ah.

paul_tyler:
It.

joseph_jordan:
Thanks. I really.

paul_tyler:
And Bruno.

bruno_caron:
Thank you.

joseph_jordan:
I really enjoyed. This is.

ramsey_d_smith:
Thanks.

joseph_jordan:
As.

ramsey_d_smith:
Joe.

joseph_jordan:
A good. It’s a good venue. It’s a good place because I know a lot of people.

tisa_rabun_marshall:
Oh.

joseph_jordan:
You come to see this And why not to.

bruno_caron:
Yeah.

joseph_jordan:
Tell people how many people view your stuff.

paul_tyler:
We ad. Let’s see. I think.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

paul_tyler:
I do a hundred thousand people close to.

joseph_jordan:
Yeah.

paul_tyler:
A.

ramsey_d_smith:
M.

paul_tyler:
Downloadthe show since we started. So.

ramsey_d_smith:
M.

paul_tyler:
Joe, you listen. If we. if we changed a few lives or changed.

ramsey_d_smith:
M.

paul_tyler:
Let me put it away. changed a few.

ramsey_d_smith:
M.

paul_tyler:
Converts Asians with advisors to change and address the needs you just describe to that woman. That’s that’s success. So.

joseph_jordan:
Better than me standing on a corner talking like.

paul_tyler:
Ah.

joseph_jordan:
Me in.

paul_tyler:
All.

bruno_caron:
M.

joseph_jordan:
Jail.

paul_tyler:
Right.

bruno_caron:
Hm.

paul_tyler:
Artis.

bruno_caron:
Hm.

ramsey_d_smith:
Right.

tisa_rabun_marshall:
Right.

paul_tyler:
Thanks and listen.

tisa_rabun_marshall:
Hm.

bruno_caron:
Oh.

ramsey_d_smith:
Oh.

paul_tyler:
Give us feedback. Tell us. Tell us who you like to see on this show and listen.

joseph_jordan:
Yeah.

paul_tyler:
Join us again next week. For another.

joseph_jordan:
You know, just keep me abreast If you get some feedback. you know.

paul_tyler:
Ye will. we will. we will. So.

joseph_jordan:
Okay.

paul_tyler:
Hey, listen, join us next time and we’ll we’ll have another great episode for you, Thanks.

joseph_jordan:
Thank you.

Episode 179: Predicting the 2023 Balance Sheet for the Annuity Industry with Scott Hawkins

January 27, 2023 2023, Podcast, Retirement, Scott Hawkins No comments

Last week we looked back at 2022. This week we’re looking ahead at 2023 with Scott Hawkins, Managing Director and Head of Insurance Research for Conning. Scott will also be a keynote speaker at our upcoming Retiretech conference in NYC on March 27th. More details will follow.

Links mentioned in the show:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/scott-hawkins-b787bb1a/

https://www.conning.com

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Episode Transcript

paul_tyler:
i this is paul tyler and welcome to another episode of that annuity show no good to see you oh

bruno_caron:
good to see you paul

paul_tyler:
isa welcome again

tisa_rabun_marshall:
morning paul

paul_tyler:
ramsey

bruno_caron:
yeah

paul_tyler:
good morning

ramsey_d_smith:
always glad to be here and very excited about today’s conversation

paul_tyler:
as am

bruno_caron:
yeah

paul_tyler:
i so last episode if you didn’t listen to it you

bruno_caron:
m

paul_tyler:
should we went did a really kind of i thought we did a good job

tisa_rabun_marshall:
m

paul_tyler:
talking through some

bruno_caron:
oh

paul_tyler:
of the themes and topics that were of significant importance in twenty twenty two and i think when

bruno_caron:
yeah

paul_tyler:
we did these some of these shows we didn’t realize they would be as important as they would and timing was

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
perfect okay our guests is r scott hawkins who is the managing director

bruno_caron:
oh

paul_tyler:
and head of insurance research for conny scott welcome

scott_hawkins:
good morning welcome everybody

paul_tyler:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
glad to be here

paul_tyler:
it has been it was been two years since we had you on our show

scott_hawkins:
two years since i was last on here

ramsey_d_smith:
wow

scott_hawkins:
yeah

paul_tyler:
unbelievable so well first of all thanks for coming back and we’re also looking forward to an event you will be key

scott_hawkins:
m

paul_tyler:
noting for us in march we’re going to be doing another retirement innovation program called retire tech i think we’ll call it retire tech i don’t know three dot

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
ramsey to i don’t know two

ramsey_d_smith:
sure

paul_tyler:
point five three

bruno_caron:
yeah

paul_tyler:
o

scott_hawkins:
a

paul_tyler:
but first and foremost scott maybe you can just tell us

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
first

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

paul_tyler:
you know we talk about

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

paul_tyler:
this just briefly before the show tell people um who exactly is conning and then let’s talk about your

scott_hawkins:
yeah

paul_tyler:
rolling and a dive into what

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

paul_tyler:
this year

scott_hawkins:
sure

paul_tyler:
may bring

scott_hawkins:
so for those of you who don’t know conning is a global asset manager been in business for over a hundred and ten years primary headquarters in hartford

bruno_caron:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
so from that you get the sense that our primary focus in is true is servicing the general account assets of insurance companies life annuity p c and health that said over a hudreteen years we

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
become global wearing hong kong type the u k cologne outside of denmark one of the ways we have been differentiating ourselves for at least fifty plus years in the market place against other

bruno_caron:
yea

scott_hawkins:
asset managers

paul_tyler:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
is providing really top levels t g research aimed at the sea level

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
executive to help them understand what’s going on in their market in their

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
products and what’s striving profit ability and what’s changing the risk they’re facing in terms of profitabil so we’ve been producing this research for our set management clients we also make it available on a stand alone basis for non asset management clients but but the ultimate aim is to help that executive understand what on in their market place why should they be focusing on and how does it affect their bottom line because for an insurance company at the end of the day bottom line is what matters

bruno_caron:
and it goes

ramsey_d_smith:
and

bruno_caron:
far beyond that of course i mean the

scott_hawkins:
m

bruno_caron:
asset application it’s not just you know one check the box item for every insurance company it’s it’s there the key fundamental of to your point of bottom line but also of balance sheet strength company strength

scott_hawkins:
yeah

bruno_caron:
capital requirement and

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

bruno_caron:
that that drives many of

ramsey_d_smith:
m

bruno_caron:
the stories and

ramsey_d_smith:
m

bruno_caron:
that’s going to be a good seguin for our conversation today

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
and to your point bruno you kno if you’re managing the assets that you’ll hear the phrase asset liability matching that that’s the approach to insurance companies generally take but for the asset manager you have to understand those liabilities are

ramsey_d_smith:
m

bruno_caron:
uh

scott_hawkins:
how they’re changing those liabilities

bruno_caron:
ah

scott_hawkins:
vary by the types of investments that you have as well as the types of products your offering and the risks

paul_tyler:
oh

scott_hawkins:
associated with those products and ultimately need to come up with an asset strategy that matches those liabilities for that individual insure which may be different from another client that you

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

scott_hawkins:
have

ramsey_d_smith:
so scott

scott_hawkins:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
one of the things that we were talking about ahead of this discussion was

bruno_caron:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
really about

bruno_caron:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
trends in the market trends in the annuity market and you know it could

bruno_caron:
okay

ramsey_d_smith:
al element around that is one of capacity so

scott_hawkins:
hm

bruno_caron:
yes

ramsey_d_smith:
very very interested to hear you can share with our audience you know where you think

bruno_caron:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
the market is in terms of capacity and how what sorts of trends were seeing to increase capacity in the life and annuity

scott_hawkins:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
space

scott_hawkins:
so ran one of the things that we produce as i mentioned the types of research one of them is a three year forecast

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

scott_hawkins:
for all the major lines of business property casually life and an annuity so what that means is we’re looking at three years down the road right now through twenty twenty four of the full income statement for

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

scott_hawkins:
the individual annuity line at an aggregate level right and that’s based upon statutory data from years before we keep track of all that

ramsey_d_smith:
a

scott_hawkins:
so in our forecast that we produce at the end of the year we’re looking at at the individual net market and we’re really seeing a market that’s really being set up for growth and profitability overall when you look at the factors driving premium there’s a lot of them that are really positive that we see

ramsey_d_smith:
hm

scott_hawkins:
a lot of them you’ve talked about on your show in the past there’s a demographic wave that’s coming in for the senior market as

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
more

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

scott_hawkins:
people are retiring they’re gonna be looking to somehow

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
generate

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

scott_hawkins:
a secure retirement income from their accumulated

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
i r a four one k assets you certainly have secure act two point o that’s come into play which is really attractive for a lot of the younger plan members that’s going to open up a whole new opportunity for them when you look at d b plan members you know we’re

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
looking at the possibility of

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
continued growth

bruno_caron:
oh

scott_hawkins:
for pension rest transfers coming in all of which comes in at a time when interest rates are improving and when interest rates are improving the spreads on fixed income annuities fixed annuities index annuities are improving so that’s where you’re seeing the growth and crediting rates those products that also means that the insurers are making a little bit more

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
profit on the net investment income

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

scott_hawkins:
net investment income for instance accounts about twenty five per cent on average of the total revenue that an annuity cut it generates on a year and year out basis the fees on separate accounts or about another ten per cent

bruno_caron:
m

scott_hawkins:
so we’re looking at a situation over the next three years where there’s a really strong potential for growth in p you start to see a bit of that this year and twenty twenty two we think that’s going to continue which means ultimately a profit ability but the thing about

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
the insurance industry is a regulated environment we’re adding these liabilities on these guarantees investment returns the ability to pay a

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
income stream for life if you have a spa that you’ve

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
purchase um and if you’re going a have a wrapped product guarantee the ability

paul_tyler:
oh

scott_hawkins:
pull those withdraws out all of those create a certain amount of risk which the insurance company bears and in order to remain solvent the regulators wisely created a capital structure referred to this risk base capital that sort of reflects the risk that the insurance company has assumed in terms of investment risk and product risk and insurers have to maintain capital levels in order to remain solvent and make sure that the regulators don’t come in and for us to your point about pacity if you look at the size of the opportunity created by secure

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
created by the fact that there are boomers looking to retire and monetize their iras now you’re talking about a multi trillion dollar opportunity and right now the industry the individual annuity industry is leveraged at about ten to one

bruno_caron:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
which means there’s about a dollar of allocated capital

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
every ten dollars general account annuity liabilities right so there’s about one point nine

bruno_caron:
oh

scott_hawkins:
trillion dollars of general account annuity liabilities is what we’ve estimated

bruno_caron:
ye

scott_hawkins:
and when you compare with the opportunity that could come in from all of these factors that are really positive for growth that

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

scott_hawkins:
leads us to the question is there enough capital to support

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
that if it all happened all at once and that’s an area we’ve been looking at since starting in two thousand eleven i first did a study on that

paul_tyler:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
when the first boomer turned sixty five so we think that

paul_tyler:
yes

scott_hawkins:
this issue around capacity

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
is going to be resolved but there’s gonna be a wide variety of ways that that’s going happen and we’ve already seen some of them emerge over the last decade so

bruno_caron:
yes

scott_hawkins:
i’ll pause ere if there’s

ramsey_d_smith:
ye

scott_hawkins:
any questions

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

bruno_caron:
so how did you react it i mean she started that that study back in two thousand eleven

scott_hawkins:
hm

bruno_caron:
we all know the inflow of capital that has been taking place in the last let’s say twelve years in the period how did that

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

bruno_caron:
stack up against

ramsey_d_smith:
ye

bruno_caron:
your you know our forecast prediction

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

bruno_caron:
of capital availability in the market

scott_hawkins:
yeah in

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
two thousand leven the conclusion that i made in that study was that we were looking then so this is pretty

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
secure act but we were just looking

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
at the demographic wave of boomers

bruno_caron:
h

scott_hawkins:
moving in

bruno_caron:
m

scott_hawkins:
and we said if everythin were to happen there wasn’t enough capital to support that as a result our conclusion was the annuity industry and annuity insures we’re going to have to look outside their traditional

bruno_caron:
oh

scott_hawkins:
pattern of capita growth which is the operating results to find third party capital

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

scott_hawkins:
to come into the market that would be attracted

bruno_caron:
oh

scott_hawkins:
to come in

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

scott_hawkins:
and sure enough a couple of years later

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
you start to see the emergency

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
of these asset manager in private equity back re insurers who are coming in and either doing reinsurance treaties or issuing new paper out there in the marketplace and that influx of third party capital as been continuing

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

scott_hawkins:
and the dynamics of that market shifting um were talking little bit earlier that one of the changes is that we’ve seen the rise of all these new players in terms of sales ranking because there actively out there trying to grow liabilities while some of the established players are looking perhaps scaled back because they have large blocks of business so clearly bringing new capital in was what we included we’ve certainly seen that happen and we’ve been tracking that ever since then with a multiple series of reports

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
and this year what i’m really

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
looking at in terms of

ramsey_d_smith:
ye

scott_hawkins:
new solutions that’s emerging on the life annuity side is the use of side cars which have been very prevalent on the property casually side for a long time and if you’re all familiar with a side car and how that’s working

paul_tyler:
yea

scott_hawkins:
out

bruno_caron:
yeah

paul_tyler:
why do you explain it

ramsey_d_smith:
at

paul_tyler:
to

scott_hawkins:
yeah

paul_tyler:
listeners because of course we are experts on side cars scott with a wink

bruno_caron:
yeah

paul_tyler:
said

scott_hawkins:
so

paul_tyler:
with a wink

scott_hawkins:
so if you think from

bruno_caron:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
the property casually world right

bruno_caron:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
they’re insuring a lot of natural catastrophe risk so the issue around how do you

paul_tyler:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
make sure that you have a capital capacity

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
when you have a cat five hurricane hit florida h one of the solutions that p c industry over time came up with was insurance link securities where they could bundle up risks and sell them off to the capital markets but also what’s known as a side car now in a way a side car is a way that third party capital institutional investors can participate in the reinsurance space without actually forming a re insure or investing directly in the insurance company so what happen is there will be a reinsurance company created and then there will be a third party institution apollo’s created one global’s created one cuvari recently created one where they go out and they raise capital from other institutional investors along with some of their own capital to supply additional capital support to that re insure as it takes on more business and then if you’re a

paul_tyler:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
primary insurer if you’re out there writing

bruno_caron:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
new annuity contracts or if you have a block of existing fixed annuities or index annuities that you want to move off your balance sheet so that your existing

bruno_caron:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
capital can be re deployed you can move that to that reinsurance company and that reinsurance company then can tap the capital in that side car that’s why it’s often

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

scott_hawkins:
referred to as a side car the investors over time you know they

bruno_caron:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
their return on the investment and the profitability of the reinsurance company

bruno_caron:
oh

scott_hawkins:
and for that institutional investor they’re not fully tied to the underlying success of the insurance company if they want to liquidate their part of the side car at some point in the future they can so it’s it’s a more liquid structure for an institutional investor who wants to assume some of the insurance risk in return without directly investing in an insurance company or a re insure long

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
way of saying it’s it’s a new source of getting capital it’s been around on the p n c side for a long time the last couple of years were now i move into the annuity space

paul_tyler:
i

scott_hawkins:
and we think that that

tisa_rabun_marshall:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
will be a very attractive opportunity for institutional investors and provides another way to bring

bruno_caron:
oh

scott_hawkins:
third party

tisa_rabun_marshall:
oh

scott_hawkins:
capital into the annuity space to support

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
the growth opportunity

paul_tyler:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
so

paul_tyler:
this business is just as scott as you know so counter intuitive ramsey bruno tis a

bruno_caron:
oh

paul_tyler:
right it’s

tisa_rabun_marshall:
oh

paul_tyler:
oh interest rates going up are a good thing oh they went up too fast that

bruno_caron:
uh

paul_tyler:
was a bad in

ramsey_d_smith:
yah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
m

scott_hawkins:
yeah

paul_tyler:
our bonds

tisa_rabun_marshall:
m

ramsey_d_smith:
hm

paul_tyler:
just got marked down

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
no so

ramsey_d_smith:
hm

paul_tyler:
it’s my mental

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
model scott

bruno_caron:
yeah

paul_tyler:
is generally there’s some good things that happen to this business

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
but if anything happens even

scott_hawkins:
hm

paul_tyler:
a good thing it happens too quickly it’s usually

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
a bad thing so

tisa_rabun_marshall:
kay

paul_tyler:
what are some of the quick shifts we could see in this market maybe we can play out a few scenarios one is interest rates get you know recession hits hard and interest rate spike even more than we’ve seen we see

bruno_caron:
oh

paul_tyler:
what are the implications here for you know the

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
annuity outlook if that’s if that pins

scott_hawkins:
so for the for the annuity outlook you know you could look for for the retail investor you’re probably going to see an increase in crediting rates to attract business right that would go up to your point if a particular company gets too far ahead and starts really seeing an influx of new sales you know they have to reserve for that they have to have the capital

bruno_caron:
yes

scott_hawkins:
capacity

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
to support that

bruno_caron:
ahead

scott_hawkins:
so they’ll be mine during that

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
at an individual

bruno_caron:
a

scott_hawkins:
company level right before their assets you know that creates some pressure on them because his interest rates go up most of the holdings of an asset and a life company are in fixed income securities interest rates go up your existing portfolio values go down a bit there’s reserves to help offset some of that that’s the good news aroun that the other challenges is you know you’re looking at what

ramsey_d_smith:
a

scott_hawkins:
we refer to as the overall portfolio rate which we’ve been

bruno_caron:
ah

scott_hawkins:
since two thousand ten and eleven we started

bruno_caron:
okay

scott_hawkins:
tracking the portfolio rate for the individual annuity

bruno_caron:
oh

scott_hawkins:
business

bruno_caron:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
which is you know we say actuaries on our teams were to say here’s what’s rolling off at an aggregate level in terms of liabilities and here’s what new sales are coming on and here’s what the interest rates for the tin ear are and that gives

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
us an india ation is sort of where the portfolio rates are headed when you look at like philly fed surveys until this year at the end of this year that portfolio forecast had always been going down and it was like i know you’ve talked about the low interest rate environment that puts pressure

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
on insures to be able to afford to offer

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
fixed incommanuities or

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
media annuities because they were under spread pressure now we’re seeing

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

scott_hawkins:
that portfolio rate swing positive and start to recover so in that scenario interest rate spike the insurance that will be bringing the end will be investing at higher rates rather than at lower rates even as older fixed income securities roll off so that will be positive for investment spreads enabling them to support more profitable products may encourage them to actually go out and write more business

paul_tyler:
so so

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

paul_tyler:
the

bruno_caron:
it

paul_tyler:
new

scott_hawkins:
that’s

paul_tyler:
is so the new

scott_hawkins:
that’s

paul_tyler:
end

scott_hawkins:
the rising interest rate

paul_tyler:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
scenario

paul_tyler:
so so that scenario will probably favor some of these companies we haven’t heard of until last two years the ones with a smaller

bruno_caron:
oh

paul_tyler:
enforced block in there

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

paul_tyler:
y’re writing de novo scott

bruno_caron:
yeah

paul_tyler:
is

scott_hawkins:
yep

paul_tyler:
it

ramsey_d_smith:
so we could i want to put i want

bruno_caron:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
to put further lens on that because i think that’s that’s it’s super important it so we have a lot of factors that are going to translate into much much greater demand there is sort

scott_hawkins:
hm

ramsey_d_smith:
of this historical capital onstraint um you’ve got legacy legacy players who are structurally more inclined or structurally philosophically more inclined to grow in a more measured way and then you have these new these new entrance that are that are incentivized to grow much more aggressively and

bruno_caron:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
quickly now what’s interesting is that sometimes depend you talk to in the industry you know there are different attitudes the different attitudes about the new third party capital providers there are some that would say well they take too much risk in their portfolios there’s

bruno_caron:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
there’s there’s

scott_hawkins:
hm

ramsey_d_smith:
various today some of it’s marketing noise some of it’s some of its reasonable sort of questions but i think that the overriding theme here is

bruno_caron:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
that we don’t have any choice like for this business to work let me know if you you know you think would agree with this statement or if i’m overplaying but it doesn’t seem like at this works at we that the industry reaches its full potential unless we have those the third party providers like we need them full stop is that fair

scott_hawkins:
absolutely

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
that that was what we saw in two thousand

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
eleven it still holds true today

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
and it’s even more so because if you think two thousand eleven we’re just looking at the potential retirement of the boomers and that that you

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
know silver sunamiiswher

bruno_caron:
m

scott_hawkins:
were referring to

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
it back then coming down what would that happen

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

scott_hawkins:
if their assets started to anuitize now you’ve got secure act which has opened up a whole new avenue of growth as well as pensioners

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
transfers which have been a growing business as d v plans look off load their retires

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

scott_hawkins:
liability on to an annuity company true that’s usually done on a group basis

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
but still that consumes capital

bruno_caron:
uh

scott_hawkins:
so to your point there’s great

bruno_caron:
h

scott_hawkins:
potential

bruno_caron:
oh

scott_hawkins:
ahead for growth the constraint is going to be will there be enough capital if the solution to that is you’re going to have to figure out a way to

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

scott_hawkins:
effectively tap third party capital institutional investors to come in and yes these these new companies these new entrance there’s people that like them people that are concerned about them to your point some of that concern valid thers though might be for their own reasons

bruno_caron:
m

scott_hawkins:
why they’re against it things like these side cars though are another way

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

scott_hawkins:
of doing it because

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

scott_hawkins:
when you just look at the overall if all you were going to do is grow based up your organic

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
profit ability and the individual annuity line overall is has been profitable about at an aggregate level and that’s about on a staff basis about eighteen nineteen billion a year on average years a ittle bit more some years little bit less but that’s not enough to support the opportunity and and you know you can sort of say well not everybody’s in for one case immediately on to move

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

scott_hawkins:
everything in not everybody and ira

bruno_caron:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
is going to immediately go out and buy a spear that that’s certainly true

bruno_caron:
oh

scott_hawkins:
but just the amount of assets in those areas some of those will and they’re gonna be encouraged to do so by by financial advisors by plan sponsors by

bruno_caron:
m

scott_hawkins:
the broader media as you’re retiring to think about how are you going to generate a guaranteed retirement income off of some of your assets and you go that’s going to lead and open up the discussion around well maybe we should consider an annuities somehow and that’s even before you start thinking about the people in who are younger employees joining

tisa_rabun_marshall:
m

scott_hawkins:
a for one if there into a annuity like product because i see a lot of innovation coming along there and i’m not quite certain what

bruno_caron:
m

scott_hawkins:
that will look like but that’s why i refer to him as annuity like those types of assets will start to build over time as well so i think this issue around capital

tisa_rabun_marshall:
oh

scott_hawkins:
could be a big constraining factor on this really strong opportunity we see for growth

ramsey_d_smith:
m

tisa_rabun_marshall:
other question

bruno_caron:
well that was

tisa_rabun_marshall:
go ahead bron

bruno_caron:
go ahead please

tisa_rabun_marshall:
so kind of on that theme of the constraint of capital and growth and the new products out there

bruno_caron:
ye

tisa_rabun_marshall:
i guess i wanted to go back on this idea of the generations right so you talked about two thousand eleven being important as the first boomer turned sixty five so now we’re like you know ten eleven years into that so my question is as we look at the boomers maybe approaching that age eighty the oldest boomers right like what does that picture look like what are the demands there they’ve been living in retirement for about a decade they’re reaching older ages maybe there’s health care concerns medical cost those kinds of things

scott_hawkins:
hm

tisa_rabun_marshall:
and right behind them right oldest gen x r is starting to hit retirement or has maybe five to seven years left a plan better for retirement given what has happened in the last ten years so you know products trends like do both generations have the same demand or is everyone focused on that guaranteed income or does the product types type to start to shift based on the generations

scott_hawkins:
there is a definite generation difference the for that older age group mean one of the areas we look at is we refer to it’s the senior market which is a combination of risks and insurance based solutions that are offered

tisa_rabun_marshall:
m

scott_hawkins:
their income solutions or one but long term care

tisa_rabun_marshall:
hm

scott_hawkins:
medic care supplements or advantage products around there and there’s distributors coming into that space and advisors to help that group understand that and that carries its own set of risks and challenges as well from a consumer point of view know you’ve done podcasts around you know some of the health and issues of dealing with an older age consumer as an adviser you know but we see that as for the for the boomers that’s going to be a growing are and we treat that more broadly and in the sense of all these others things that there needed to really meet that generational demand with the secure two point o act which we’ve been looking at pretty intensely over the last couple of months really trying to now that it’s out there really what that means is you can really start looking at generation x the millennial gen season you know would sure there’s a dip in gen x in terms of absolute numbers but the millennials and gin zese are as large if not larger than the baby boomers and secure two point o now opens up an annuity opportunity through in plan annuities in those four or one case

bruno_caron:
oh

scott_hawkins:
spaces to those younger consumers and they’ll start building assets some of them will those those annuities which is creating a whole new opportunity for advisors and insurance companies

bruno_caron:
oh

scott_hawkins:
to figure out how do we provide services to that age group which traditionally not perhaps been target for a annuity sale because they hadn’t accumulated the assets at that point in time

bruno_caron:
oh

scott_hawkins:
and we think those

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

scott_hawkins:
generations will start to attract some of the attention those obviously they have always been a factor

bruno_caron:
oh

scott_hawkins:
look the life insurance business those younger consumers are usually the prime buying age twenty four to fifty four to sixty four

tisa_rabun_marshall:
m

scott_hawkins:
for buying life insurance and traditionally to have been associated with life stages you know getting married buying a home having a child interestingly enough when you look at those life stages that are key financial decision moments those are getting pushed later and later people are getting married later they’re buying homes later they’re having children

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
later and if you look ahead that will have

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
to have to have life insures thinking about when are we approaching people when are they going to be receptive to

bruno_caron:
oh

scott_hawkins:
buying an insurance policy probably the same is a little bit true for the annuities but the four one k

bruno_caron:
oh

scott_hawkins:
an plan annuity sort of eases them

tisa_rabun_marshall:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
into the idea of i’m accumulating money for for retirement on an income basis

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
a little earlier

scott_hawkins:
i hope that helps a little

ramsey_d_smith:
you

scott_hawkins:
bit

ramsey_d_smith:
are you

tisa_rabun_marshall:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
are you are so preaching to the choir

tisa_rabun_marshall:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
here at least i’ll

bruno_caron:
uh

ramsey_d_smith:
speak

scott_hawkins:
o

ramsey_d_smith:
for myself so and definitely

bruno_caron:
uh

ramsey_d_smith:
have a clear vision of what that might look like um

bruno_caron:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
the interesting

bruno_caron:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
thing though is like um it’s just sort of the adoption cycle the adoption cycle has not been as quick as as i think many of us would like it to see and there’ve been some there’ve been some providers if you will that have been trying to do this for ten years so uh a lot of it comes down to who the decision makers are so in some sense it’s planned participants for in plan but really the often the keep so it’s going to be person or persons that’s going to be the the investment committee or the the manager that’s in charge of the that’s in charge of the defined contribution plan and so i’m is in your travels right in the work that you’re doing at conning um are you having those conversations yet are you are you seeing plant sponsors sort of start to to examine that is that is that is that a conversation that you’ve been involved because i think i think that over time it’s one that but that intellectually you should be involved in because you guys have the you guys have the you guys have valuable information and perspective that i think would be useful for plan sponsors i’m curious if they are if they are part of your client base yet

scott_hawkins:
uh so they’re not part of our client based

ramsey_d_smith:
hm

scott_hawkins:
but the people we

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
talk with

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
and the way we’ve been viewing this is especially true for secure to point out uh secure point one gave the fiduciary safe harbor rule for selecting which was

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

scott_hawkins:
a big stumbling block

ramsey_d_smith:
hm

scott_hawkins:
right secure two point really does a lot more

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

scott_hawkins:
and what we’ve been hearing in our converse ation um is the changes required to implement these so think are now perhaps a stumbling block for full adoption let me give ou an example so

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

scott_hawkins:
suppose you’re a plan sponsor and a record eeper

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

scott_hawkins:
and you now want to put an annuity product

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

scott_hawkins:
inside your four one offering well you’ve got an infrastructure built on being able to do all the record keeping and trans transaction stuff with a mutual fund company right you’ve got data standards in place that makes that efficient

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
and effective to do you’ve got to build all that to go to an annuity company and those are probably going to be different and if you have multiple annuity companies you’re dealing with is there a standard inter face for all of those do you have to build one for each time

ramsey_d_smith:
hm

scott_hawkins:
these are all new questions that we think plan sponsors and record keepers are having to think through and

paul_tyler:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
come up with with answers and solutions to that and i know

paul_tyler:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
from conversation i know thing is spark is

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
is trying to work out

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

scott_hawkins:
on their own because there’s going to be demand from plan members to sort of say

bruno_caron:
oh

scott_hawkins:
you know how much of my you know be hearing about this my financial wellness apse telling me i should be thinking about this my statement saying here’s what my retirement income could be based on this is there some sort of annuity like solution for that so the opportunities there i think i’m not seeing a reluctance from you know philosofh fecal reluctance now to include it it’s more of a technical operational issue

ramsey_d_smith:
so can you

scott_hawkins:
and that that will be resolved but its gonna take a little bit of time

ramsey_d_smith:
for our audience can you tell them who spark is

scott_hawkins:
so spark is a association

bruno_caron:
m

scott_hawkins:
for plan record keepers so they deal you know is primarily everybody that you know between the

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
plan

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

scott_hawkins:
sponsor a defined contribution plan and then

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

scott_hawkins:
the fund companies all those records that have to be kept of your account balances

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
beneficiaries transactions all that those are those services that do that and it’s a scale business so they have to

paul_tyler:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
be very efficient at doing that and they’re

paul_tyler:
oh

scott_hawkins:
you know being asked because of this great opportunity now we have to really start plugging into a whole new set of product providers solution providers that we’ve never really done that before

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
yeah interest

bruno_caron:
and

ramsey_d_smith:
go ahead bruno

bruno_caron:
interest yeah interesting and that’s a lot to look forward to but i want to get back on the on the balance sheet and

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

bruno_caron:
you mentioned you know that that ten to one ratio liabilities to capital h makes perfect sense it’s very very consistent to

ramsey_d_smith:
m

bruno_caron:
everything i’ve observed you have deferred annuities in tex annuities pension risk transfers spas all of those you now require

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

bruno_caron:
roughly speaking ten percent

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

bruno_caron:
capital for for for liability block um and of course i don’t want to dump down risk adjusted caitalization to this i mean there’s there’s a lot

scott_hawkins:
yeah

bruno_caron:
more on the asset side on the liability side that goes into the risk adjusted capitalization and um but what i’m really interested is the other thing is those liabilities are fairly straightforward as well again i don’t want to jump down all the actuorial work that is out there present

scott_hawkins:
yeah

bruno_caron:
you have future benefits present value of future premiums you have you know you have a liability if if we switch that into the context

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

bruno_caron:
of variable

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

bruno_caron:
annuity with living benefits now

scott_hawkins:
hm

bruno_caron:
these have been issued you know a few decades ago now we’re in time when you know technically policy holders

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

bruno_caron:
can and should utilize them um those liabilities and those capital requirements for those particular benefits are not as clear as you know some of those those

scott_hawkins:
yeah

bruno_caron:
other or more straightforward annuities do you have any sense or any any views on

ramsey_d_smith:
yes

bruno_caron:
how those policies are

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

bruno_caron:
going to play out

ramsey_d_smith:
m

bruno_caron:
over next decade

scott_hawkins:
well

bruno_caron:
oh

scott_hawkins:
first of all you’reactulutely right to sort of carve out the variable annuity space because you know a plain vanilla va without any of those imbedded garran would typically have

ramsey_d_smith:
ye

scott_hawkins:
a lower capital charge because all the investment risk which is a big risk factor on a immediate or fixed deferetinuity that’s assumed by the contract holder but the moment

bruno_caron:
m

scott_hawkins:
you put a guaranteed

bruno_caron:
m

scott_hawkins:
minimum

bruno_caron:
oh

scott_hawkins:
withdrawal benefit or a death benefit any of those guaranteed benefits the insurance company s assumed some level of risk and if you look at the v a bus this and i cut my teeth in it in the in the mid eighties um

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

scott_hawkins:
it’s been those

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
changes in

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

scott_hawkins:
those equity linked guarantees

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
that have

bruno_caron:
my

scott_hawkins:
really led to massive reserve try just when equity markets went down after

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
the insure tech bust in the

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
tech bust in two thousand two thousand eight currently with all the equity market volatility in response all of the insurance companies that are in that space have really had to up there their risk management game in terms of their hedging very dynamic hedging to maintain that to your now if people start

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
using those guaranteed benefits

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
so i’m pulling out say i have a guaranteed minimum withdraw benefit ten per cent and i am actually going to start executing that that has to factor into how they’re managing all their options and risk management that’s going around that i think it’s also why you might be seeing i might have seen as we mentioned earlier some of those more established players ing back because they had you know a lot of them had very large va blocks

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
business even though they were scaling that back nd they’re still on their books and they’re trying to figure out what can we do with those risks and a lot of these new reinsurance companies have been focusing on blah s have closed fixed deferred annuities or maybe some index annuity flow re insurance but it’s only recently that we’ve seen any meaningful

bruno_caron:
hm

scott_hawkins:
reinsurance deals and i

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
think the reason is if you’re going to be

bruno_caron:
yes

scott_hawkins:
taking on those types of liabilities from a v a with all those imbedded guarantees you’ve got to have as that re insure you’ve got to have a really strong risk management game and when you look at the two companies that have been involved as the re insure

bruno_caron:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

scott_hawkins:
they spun out of companies that had very very large va blocks to begin with

bruno_caron:
oh

scott_hawkins:
and they had that capability in house not all of these

bruno_caron:
yah

scott_hawkins:
new reinsurance companies have been formed over last decade have that level of capability which is not to say they couldn’t do it but you know to the extent that there are those that can do it there’s a lot of opportunity for insures primary insures

ramsey_d_smith:
yes

scott_hawkins:
to re structure

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

scott_hawkins:
their balance sheet by removing

ramsey_d_smith:
h

scott_hawkins:
those that gets back to the pacity issue that freeze up capital they can deploy elsewhere

bruno_caron:
oh

scott_hawkins:
but it’s gonna be interesting to see if people do start to to utilize their gmwbs or some of the other imbedded guarantees how that plays out

paul_tyler:
let me just pull that thread

bruno_caron:
m

paul_tyler:
a little bit

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

paul_tyler:
i do think generally people criticize the insurance business for not delivering enough value but then

bruno_caron:
oh

paul_tyler:
when you always look back ten years

bruno_caron:
yeah

paul_tyler:
late for some of these products there was too much value in there and we end up with a lot of hangovers you know disability hang overs long term care hangover

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
m

paul_tyler:
v a hangovers now you mentioned the lifetime guarantee benefit

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
writers now

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
on another podcast

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
that we do called prime life which is

bruno_caron:
m

paul_tyler:
focused on consumers where been interviewing a lot of people focused on longevity and how long will people and can people really live and you know the technology scot you know is changing dramatically

scott_hawkins:
yep

paul_tyler:
people are changing a lot of people are doing the right things exercise diet

bruno_caron:
oh

paul_tyler:
changing

bruno_caron:
oh

paul_tyler:
behavior that it’s just common sense but we’ve got new drugs on the horizon um medical technology is improving dramatically what happens if you know the action estimates of

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
of our life’s span are wrong the say we live ten years longer what kind of impact does that have with our current generation products as your team looked at this yet yes

scott_hawkins:
we haven’t looked at in terms of annuities now but you know where if you’re looking for a parallel for that scenario look at individual long term care when that product came out there were assumptions about

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
longevity and

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
utilization as well as interests that were baked into the pricing and while you know they’re on like an annuity you’re paying ongoing premiums uh and those assumptions for longevity those assumptions around utilization didn’t play out the way it was thought when those

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
products were first designed

paul_tyler:
eh

scott_hawkins:
there was a lot more utilization than was

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
expected there was much stronger increase in a longevity than was

bruno_caron:
yah

scott_hawkins:
expected and as a result if you follow that

paul_tyler:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
space you know that those insurance with those blocks quit writing the business and those that are that had blocks were still in there they’re going back and saying i need a significant rate increase from the insurance commissioners in their respective

bruno_caron:
oh

scott_hawkins:
states and getting pushed back

paul_tyler:
oh

scott_hawkins:
and now think about the v a space when they’re coming up with those imbedded options ten fifteen years ago selling those products there were certain assumptions based on longevity and usual satan and if those don’t play out that

paul_tyler:
m

scott_hawkins:
increases the risk for the insurer because

paul_tyler:
ah

scott_hawkins:
they made the guarantee

bruno_caron:
oh

scott_hawkins:
that you’re gonna be able to do that

paul_tyler:
right

scott_hawkins:
and it leads back to sort of

paul_tyler:
oh

scott_hawkins:
okay what does that do to profit ability and also

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

scott_hawkins:
for capital

paul_tyler:
hey well listen we’re near the top of the

bruno_caron:
oh

paul_tyler:
end of our time

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

paul_tyler:
bruno any final

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

paul_tyler:
thoughts questions for scott

bruno_caron:
i mean

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

bruno_caron:
i mean in terms of you know where capitals is going where liabilities

ramsey_d_smith:
m

bruno_caron:
are going i think that’s a could be a topic for for another

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

bruno_caron:
episode but no

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

bruno_caron:
thank you appreciate you coming in and

paul_tyler:
yeah

bruno_caron:
and commenting

ramsey_d_smith:
m

bruno_caron:
on on those those difficult issues

tisa_rabun_marshall:
yes

paul_tyler:
yeah it’s

scott_hawkins:
yeah

paul_tyler:
scott is great you know we always think specifically

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
about products we don’t really don’t think about the acid the balance for the industry

bruno_caron:
oh

paul_tyler:
you know fascintine topic

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
i think that you know and

bruno_caron:
oh

scott_hawkins:
i listen to the show and and the way i view if you’re a distributor if you’re an advisor if you’re a consultant

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
you’re absolutely right you’re focused

tisa_rabun_marshall:
oh

scott_hawkins:
on product differences how the playing out and all

tisa_rabun_marshall:
oh

scott_hawkins:
of that but ultimately your client may come back to you and say you know i have this annuity that’s now just been re insured by somebody else i’m trying to understand why things are happening and as an advisor knowing the products knowing how they

bruno_caron:
oh

scott_hawkins:
play out crucial but also understanding what’s going on in the broader market affecting the issue of that annuities is crucial so

paul_tyler:
tis a what do you think

tisa_rabun_marshall:
yes ah well it’s a pleasure to meet you scott thanks for all of the insights and i think we have

paul_tyler:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
the title of today’s episode

paul_tyler:
ye

tisa_rabun_marshall:
the industry’s balance sheet so wait

bruno_caron:
ye

tisa_rabun_marshall:
paul you just

ramsey_d_smith:
m

tisa_rabun_marshall:
you just came up with

ramsey_d_smith:
m

tisa_rabun_marshall:
it as we were

bruno_caron:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
as we

paul_tyler:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
were wrapping up

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

paul_tyler:
ramsey

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah so many things because it touches on so many areas of interest

bruno_caron:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
for me i think just a number of things one is i think we live in a world where

bruno_caron:
a

ramsey_d_smith:
the

bruno_caron:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
the difficulty of basically providing the risk coverage and getting the capital capacities under appreciated by the market right and i hope that the big people that are listening to this and other sort of understand how difficult it is to price

bruno_caron:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
risk and you know and ultimately provide what is critical services for for this country and beyond that you know how much how much third party capital we need to come into the space in order to essentially meet you know are americas need if you will and so i’m very hopeful and excited

bruno_caron:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
about what the future holds and really appreciate the perspective you gave on how we need to get there

scott_hawkins:
you

paul_tyler:
yeah thank scott for for people who want to learn more about conning get access to your research connect with you what’s the best way

scott_hawkins:
you can go to conning dot

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

scott_hawkins:
com and there will be a link right down to our research which will tell you how to get hold of us either v phone call or

ramsey_d_smith:
m

scott_hawkins:
through email

paul_tyler:
excellent all right well scott we look forward to having you on center stage at our event in new york march

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

scott_hawkins:
looking forward to that

paul_tyler:
march twenty seventh more details to follow um bruno

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

paul_tyler:
thanks tis a

bruno_caron:
oh

paul_tyler:
thanks ramsey thanks as usual and listen give us feedback and look forward to having you join us again next week for another episode of that annuity show thanks m

scott_hawkins:
yes

bruno_caron:
oh

Episode 178: Looking Back At 2022

January 13, 2023 2022, Podcast, Retirement No comments

We covered a lot of topics in 2022 with many of the leaders of the retirement and annuity business. We thought it would be worthwhile to take a look back at the shows that stood out last year. And at the same time, think about what issues may be very important to discuss in 2023. As we plan our schedule for the coming year, please reach out and give us your suggestions for guests and topics.

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Episode Transcript

paul_tyler:
hi this is paul tyler and welcome to another episode of that annuity show in fact this is

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

paul_tyler:
episode one hundred and seventy

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

paul_tyler:
eight and it’s the first week your ramsey how are you

ramsey_d_smith:
it very glad

paul_tyler:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
to be back amazing that we’re already

bruno_caron:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
almost to

paul_tyler:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
a hundred and hundred and eighty episodes

paul_tyler:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
and very happy

paul_tyler:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
to be in a new year i think twenty twenty two asked much of all of us this time for

paul_tyler:
ah

ramsey_d_smith:
a fresh start

paul_tyler:
no kidding bruno

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
what a year

bruno_caron:
what are your

paul_tyler:
oh

bruno_caron:
echoing

paul_tyler:
oh

bruno_caron:
ramsey’s comments of course i think a fresh start is going to be is going to be beneficial

paul_tyler:
oh

bruno_caron:
and i’m looking forward to it

paul_tyler:
tis a good to see you here happy new year

bruno_caron:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
happy new year

bruno_caron:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
yeah fresh

paul_tyler:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
starts always good i agree with bruno so looking forward to

ramsey_d_smith:
m

bruno_caron:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
what’s

paul_tyler:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
ahead for twenty twenty three

paul_tyler:
well i’m going to tell you i’ll set up this this conversation was just sort of a little bit of back story

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

paul_tyler:
i’ve been

bruno_caron:
oh

paul_tyler:
very lucky with travel so over the winter i kind of dodged the ice storm

bruno_caron:
m yeah

paul_tyler:
i picked i was lucky enough to pick the right air long had

bruno_caron:
uh

paul_tyler:
no cancelations same thing this week i was actually just

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
came back from tampa yesterday where we had a meeting with you know one of our hosts mark fitz gerald our sales team

bruno_caron:
yeah

paul_tyler:
product came down really look at what happened last year and also think about what’s happening next year next year

bruno_caron:
oh

paul_tyler:
this year twenty twenty three and we thought it made sense to you know kind of do the same thing with with our show we covered a lot of ground

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

paul_tyler:
with a lot of spect acular

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
guests

bruno_caron:
oh

paul_tyler:
and some of our guests actually

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

paul_tyler:
turned into host bruno

bruno_caron:
um

paul_tyler:
you know you joined our our line up tisza

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
you did as well

tisa_rabun_marshall:
oh

paul_tyler:
and

bruno_caron:
yeah

paul_tyler:
which has been terrific addition over the last last couple of months bruno you changed jobs

bruno_caron:
oh

paul_tyler:
right went from the regulator regulation side to the business which is

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

paul_tyler:
which

bruno_caron:
m

paul_tyler:
is great so

bruno_caron:
that’s

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
so rams what do you think if i throw out a few topics that we covered

bruno_caron:
oh

paul_tyler:
and you know just

bruno_caron:
oh

paul_tyler:
i guess think about you know first of all think back to what we what we covered last year and then what we think will continue into next year and some of the topics we think that may be new that may be a war be much more important than

bruno_caron:
oh

paul_tyler:
war in twenty twenty three than twenty twenty two how

bruno_caron:
yeah

paul_tyler:
does that sound

ramsey_d_smith:
makes sense a rock and roll

paul_tyler:
all right

bruno_caron:
yeah

paul_tyler:
so i don’t know i think we couldn’t have a conversation on this show if

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
we didn’t have regulations

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

paul_tyler:
somewhere in the mix you know we kicked off last year

bruno_caron:
oh

paul_tyler:
pulling in our one of our you know

bruno_caron:
oh

paul_tyler:
you know two top attorneys

ramsey_d_smith:
ah

bruno_caron:
yeah

paul_tyler:
eric marhoon and halymonmaldonat

bruno_caron:
yes

paul_tyler:
talk about the implementation do believe this i think it was back in january the implementation of best enter standards

tisa_rabun_marshall:
oh

paul_tyler:
right and then

bruno_caron:
yeah

paul_tyler:
we actually ended up pulling in you know kimo brian an industry association group to talk about

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
you know a lot of the industry’s plans to get regulators and the courts to reconsider some of the regulation you know where do we land i mean i don’t know did this landscape really change or not i’ll throw that out i don’t know three view

bruno_caron:
at the very least i

paul_tyler:
yeah

bruno_caron:
think that the good news is that e’re talking about it and things are moving forward is as it is with all right latin

paul_tyler:
ah

bruno_caron:
it’s very hard to see the direct impact but

paul_tyler:
what

bruno_caron:
but our prior show we had we had very very good comments and very good very good feedback that things made sense things were logical and

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

bruno_caron:
so from from that

paul_tyler:
m

bruno_caron:
standpoint i think we’re going in the right direction i think is there a lot of work to be done yes of course but i think

paul_tyler:
oh

bruno_caron:
at least the discus and it’s taken place at

paul_tyler:
yah h

bruno_caron:
the regulatory level

paul_tyler:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
i guess

bruno_caron:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
from my perspective i think it’s

bruno_caron:
m

ramsey_d_smith:
i think it’s an important converse conversation like best interest is an important conversation i think it’s important that whether it’s regulators

bruno_caron:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
or the

bruno_caron:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
you know or the industry

bruno_caron:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
um proceed with intentionality towards towards best interest standards the the challenge then

paul_tyler:
m

ramsey_d_smith:
becomes one of implementation and

bruno_caron:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
product structures and comp satan structures and just sort of historic culture in different sort of elements of the financial services industry it ultimately ends up

bruno_caron:
ah

ramsey_d_smith:
creating creating conflicts in terms of figuring out the best way to implement things so we’ve had one of our i think r most popular or most regular guests and popular and most regular guest has been michelle rictorshe is devoted

paul_tyler:
m

ramsey_d_smith:
a lot of time and energy to

bruno_caron:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
know to articulating um articulating the what it will take to create a sort of a fad or a standard in the insurance the insurance space and

paul_tyler:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
and why there’s

paul_tyler:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
why there’s a need for that and so i think this is i think there is a continued work in progress i think it’s important and end and largely from from my perspective i think it’s a i think it’s a conversation that needs to incorporate every every element of every sleeve of financial fassionals that serve that serve consumers so it’s not just the insurance industry it’s you knowproduciary

paul_tyler:
ye

ramsey_d_smith:
advisors should they be paid based on a ump should they be plased pay hourly should they be

paul_tyler:
oh

bruno_caron:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
paid flat fees that’s a debate i think

paul_tyler:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
there’s just as much would the chop there around

paul_tyler:
m

bruno_caron:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
conflicts of interest as the re as there is in the the insurance side so i think we need to we need have a wholistic dialogue there across everybody who services the industry to get to the right answer

paul_tyler:
and in so you were involved in a lot of the implementation of some

tisa_rabun_marshall:
oh

paul_tyler:
of the regulatory changes and it was if i had seen the list of changes coming i would have tought this would have been a big deal for advisers i mean we had the

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

paul_tyler:
best inter standards we had changes in arm de rols being implemented we had

tisa_rabun_marshall:
hm

paul_tyler:
income statement showing in people’s for one case statements first thing what do you think if we did

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

paul_tyler:
a pole of agents was this a monumentally new environment or was it same as usual

tisa_rabun_marshall:
yeah i mean i agree with ramsey

paul_tyler:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
right the intent is right protecting clients and consumers best interest but i think the flaw is in the implementation or the challenges in the implementation where now

paul_tyler:
ye

tisa_rabun_marshall:
see the process bog down with paper work

bruno_caron:
okay

tisa_rabun_marshall:
over documentation

paul_tyler:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
process changes and

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

bruno_caron:
ah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
agents don’t like to change right the way that they’re selling they have a system they have a process that they know so i think it was more disruptive in the form of just how

ramsey_d_smith:
m

tisa_rabun_marshall:
you work with clients and for clients i think it was just confusing nancial services are already

bruno_caron:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
confusing

paul_tyler:
oh

bruno_caron:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
the products re already confusing the process is already confusing and then adding in additional layers of

ramsey_d_smith:
m

bruno_caron:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
paper work and signatures and

bruno_caron:
my

tisa_rabun_marshall:
signing off men we got a lot of feed back in the language of trying to understand like who’s getting compensated for this and

paul_tyler:
yeah

bruno_caron:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
why and why am i signing this and what

ramsey_d_smith:
uh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
does it mean so

paul_tyler:
you what’s a p t a

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

paul_tyler:
form

bruno_caron:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
the

paul_tyler:
right

tisa_rabun_marshall:
intent is that

paul_tyler:
ye

tisa_rabun_marshall:
is correct but

ramsey_d_smith:
m

tisa_rabun_marshall:
i think the implementation

bruno_caron:
oh

paul_tyler:
ye

tisa_rabun_marshall:
and really making sure that

paul_tyler:
he

tisa_rabun_marshall:
customers understand the why and agents and still

paul_tyler:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
easily run their business is where the where the

paul_tyler:
a

tisa_rabun_marshall:
challenge is

paul_tyler:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
it hasn’t been obviously hasn’t been solved yet

paul_tyler:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
fully

paul_tyler:
i know it keeps on changing remember just before the pandemic ramsey when we did a couple episodes on on the secure act

ramsey_d_smith:
sure

paul_tyler:
right and then you didn’t talk

ramsey_d_smith:
ah

paul_tyler:
about it much you know oh

bruno_caron:
yeah

paul_tyler:
all sorts of health issues health concerns

ramsey_d_smith:
sure

paul_tyler:
now

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
we did talk a lot about implananuities and then alone

bruno_caron:
ah

paul_tyler:
beholds secure

bruno_caron:
tut

paul_tyler:
two dot comes um kind of looking back on the year where did the you know in plan annuities how would you characterize the year and you know secure at look through the details i don’t know does it really impact in plan annuities

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

paul_tyler:
not sure

ramsey_d_smith:
so

bruno_caron:
m

ramsey_d_smith:
i will say it’s my view that that that the in plan op opportunity for for consumers for plan sponsors for carriers for asset manage it’s really the whole eco system

bruno_caron:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
in in the four one case space

paul_tyler:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
was really defined by principles that were laid out in secure act version one point out so really it’s it’s it’s the our active twenty nineteen that that provided safe harbor you know around selection of carriers it’s the secret

paul_tyler:
m

ramsey_d_smith:
twenty nineteen that that created the necessity uh that you just high lighted a moment ago up to

bruno_caron:
m

ramsey_d_smith:
provide an income equivalent for your account value on your statement on a regular basis i think it’s a very important sort of communication tool really from not just from not just from from

bruno_caron:
m

ramsey_d_smith:
the industry but i think from the the u s government sort of being very clear about about how they how

paul_tyler:
m

ramsey_d_smith:
we as a country see the know the importance of retirement income any case all that happened in twenty nineteen it was overtaken by events in the form of the pandemic secure act two no doesn’t really directly address in plantanuities but what it does do is it continues to make it

paul_tyler:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
really very clear that that this remains a area of key focus for you know the

paul_tyler:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
u s government in our legislative bodies so there’s a lot of reforms in there around iras around auto enrollment i think it’s a hundred different provisions some of which were covered recently in our interview with jamie hopkins um so i think

paul_tyler:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
secure at two point o is very important culturally legally in culture but in terms of in terms of continuing continuing to focus on retirement income even if it doesn’t directly address in plan annuities so with all that said

paul_tyler:
m

ramsey_d_smith:
i think that like twenty twenty three and beyond is where we’re really going to start to see the inplananuity potential start to start to grow and become more evident to a or in broader population so i remain and my team remains very very bullish on the potential there

paul_tyler:
you know well while we’re still on the topic of public policy we talked a lot about the four per cent they’re all rule ramsey great to get to get to the father of the four percent

bruno_caron:
m

paul_tyler:
rule bill bengeton on line

ramsey_d_smith:
that

paul_tyler:
with

ramsey_d_smith:
was amazing

paul_tyler:
us yeah

bruno_caron:
m

paul_tyler:
so so bruno ill put you know

bruno_caron:
yeah

paul_tyler:
you’re

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
you’re you’re looking at this from the across the board you know we had some great discussions

bruno_caron:
oh

paul_tyler:
on you know is

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
the death of social security

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

paul_tyler:
greatly exaggerated carry pectore came on we had a really good discussion

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

paul_tyler:
you know about despite disfunction in congress you know he was up

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

paul_tyler:
he firmly believes that social security will

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

paul_tyler:
run on we had ramsey david duly you know

ramsey_d_smith:
yep

paul_tyler:
you your your friend from atlanta your neighbor

ramsey_d_smith:
yep

bruno_caron:
ah

paul_tyler:
who’s offering a sort of private way to protect where are we headed bruno i’ll throw it to you you

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

paul_tyler:
know

bruno_caron:
well i think to to point the

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

bruno_caron:
having william burgbugan as as a

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

bruno_caron:
guest was was great was also very humbling

ramsey_d_smith:
m

bruno_caron:
i thought he was he was amazing

paul_tyler:
oh

bruno_caron:
and how

paul_tyler:
oh

bruno_caron:
how his theory took

paul_tyler:
oh

bruno_caron:
off and i think he’s the first one to say that you know it’s a model and you know all models were but some are useful

paul_tyler:
yeah

bruno_caron:
i think it was a very very humbling very very good very good discussion and i think

ramsey_d_smith:
m

bruno_caron:
it put things into perspect

paul_tyler:
yeah

bruno_caron:
where it gives you know the

paul_tyler:
oh

bruno_caron:
four percent rule gives you a ball park it gives you an idea it gives you a sense of direction but

paul_tyler:
it

bruno_caron:
it’s not the answer and we’ve had uh

paul_tyler:
oh

bruno_caron:
uh

ramsey_d_smith:
m

bruno_caron:
recurring guests such as such as david blanchet and michael fink talk about you know that four percent rule dropping to three point three percent i think it fo also talked talked about that but again

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

bruno_caron:
the whole point

paul_tyler:
oh

bruno_caron:
is that it’s

ramsey_d_smith:
m

bruno_caron:
it’s a model

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

bruno_caron:
is t’s a ball park figure and addressing kowlaungevity risk in that the context of more certainty just like you want your car to be insured a hundred percent is one way

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

bruno_caron:
to look at it be

ramsey_d_smith:
ye

bruno_caron:
is another way to look at it so i think that those conversations are just the starting point for more lifetime income solutions more in plan than he’s and you know more you know potential more more

ramsey_d_smith:
m

bruno_caron:
innovation for for twenty twenty three in the years to come

paul_tyler:
i don’t know tis you know do you think given what we just watched over the last couple of weeks that congress will have the band with actually tackle the trust fund funding for social secure we that will that actually be something that makes the priority list

bruno_caron:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
my simple answer is no

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
i don’t think but

paul_tyler:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
that’s

bruno_caron:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
maybe the skeptical

bruno_caron:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
or pessimistic side of thinking that we don’t have grown ups in charge on ere just going to keep

paul_tyler:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
coming to these deal mates and fighting my hopeful and optimistic side says that the agenda

bruno_caron:
take

tisa_rabun_marshall:
of the people

ramsey_d_smith:
m

tisa_rabun_marshall:
and those

bruno_caron:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
things that protect you know our future the future of our

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
seniors as everyone eventually hits those ages does become priority and does

paul_tyler:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
get tackled i think it’s a big complex topic i think that unfortunately right now our politicians are probably not focused on the right thing

paul_tyler:
ah yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
it

paul_tyler:
ramsey

bruno_caron:
yeah

paul_tyler:
what

ramsey_d_smith:
so

paul_tyler:
do you think yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
on which one well two things

tisa_rabun_marshall:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
so i’ll

bruno_caron:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
work backwards i’ll start with social security

tisa_rabun_marshall:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
um

paul_tyler:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
i don’t i don’t think it is going to be politically expedient to do anything that

bruno_caron:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
takes away what is fundamentally right fundamentally sort of a part of everybody’s retirement plan it’s of great value to it’s even of great value to people that are relatively wealthy and if you you think about the p v of your your your social security benefit particularly given all the features that it contains cost of living adjustment et cetera

paul_tyler:
yes

ramsey_d_smith:
and that it’s backed by the u

paul_tyler:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
s government it’s it’s it’s of enormous it’s of enormous

paul_tyler:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
value and for many people

paul_tyler:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
it’s their single greatest sort of

paul_tyler:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
implicit asset so i think it’s i think irrespective of irrespective of of political leanings

bruno_caron:
m

ramsey_d_smith:
when it gets down to brass tax people of all political leanings rely on

bruno_caron:
ah

ramsey_d_smith:
their social security

bruno_caron:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
at a certain point and so i think i think that’s really a difficult thing to take away so i think that

bruno_caron:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
i think it will be painful process to get there but i think the government will ultimately ultimately deliver maybe he’ll be some adjustments

paul_tyler:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
but i think ultimately that they will deliver i just wanted to go back

paul_tyler:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
a little

bruno_caron:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
bit to what we were saying on the m the four per cent role and first echo what bruno had to say about how it’s it’s an important conversation starter i think one of things that i think everybody should keep in mind is that that one it’s a bench mark and two all bench marks are imperfect so the dow thirty is probably the most imperfect bench mark on the planet the five hundred is a good bench markets imperfect lib or which ultimately up until recently was

bruno_caron:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
the sort of the bench mark for virtually you know virtually every directly or indirectly virtually every sort of fixed income trend actually on the planet very imperfect but ultimately when you have a when you have a have a bench mark it’s it’s it’s a starting point not just for

paul_tyler:
ah

ramsey_d_smith:
discussion it’s a starting point for action

paul_tyler:
ah

ramsey_d_smith:
and so that’s that’s the great

bruno_caron:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
gift that we got from from from william bangin nd really it was amazing to have him on the on the podcast

paul_tyler:
it was great and okay if the politicians can’t solve it can can technology so we had a actually had an in person event

bruno_caron:
yeah

paul_tyler:
this summer on we called it rita

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

paul_tyler:
teck two dot o bruno you are a host you were actually a

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
great moderator had a number

bruno_caron:
yeah

paul_tyler:
of guests

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

paul_tyler:
from our show up there i think to we had people show of hands i think we had probably thirty prior guests on our show um bron do you think some of the technology will step in and fill the gap and i’m

bruno_caron:
oh

paul_tyler:
thinking of dave marcia who’s been on our show well to k

bruno_caron:
yeah

paul_tyler:
sir connor at income conductor i mean what’s your are you bullish on technology as a work is solved here

bruno_caron:
well it’s definitely

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

bruno_caron:
part of the solution there there’s no doubt to your point

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

paul_tyler:
oh

bruno_caron:
we’ve had you know great speakers there uh talk about some of

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

bruno_caron:
there some of their startups and some of their their ventures so yes i do believe that it’s

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

bruno_caron:
part of a major echo system where uh you know people get

paul_tyler:
m

bruno_caron:
prone in ideas and how

paul_tyler:
oh

bruno_caron:
these ideas make their way into into practice

paul_tyler:
oh

bruno_caron:
it’s a long slow process but but it’s what a path forward and it’s it’s a positive path forward so yes i’m very very bullish on those those those startups that we were able to you know to interact with

paul_tyler:
yeah

bruno_caron:
in hartford back in back in june

paul_tyler:
yeah ramsey

bruno_caron:
oh

paul_tyler:
will machine

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

paul_tyler:
save us

ramsey_d_smith:
so i think machines will help us i think that they will disrupt certain things we do but i always believe that the extent that they do that that it allows to to do things that

bruno_caron:
m

ramsey_d_smith:
that highlight our greater strength so i don’t know if any of you ve tried to chat g p t um but that has been that’s

bruno_caron:
m

ramsey_d_smith:
it’s pretty remarkable vice and it’s interesting as you put a question in and it gives you an answer and i actually i actually started asking financial questions

paul_tyler:
yes i did

ramsey_d_smith:
just

paul_tyler:
too

ramsey_d_smith:
to see to see what kind of an as i got and you know for example

paul_tyler:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
i said you know

bruno_caron:
m

ramsey_d_smith:
when should i when should i when should i claim for social security i put a question like that in there and the difference between that and google search is that one first of all google google searches obviously highly influenced by by

paul_tyler:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
sort of advertising dollars directly and indirectly and to it just sort of like it index the stuff instead of shows you stuff but these stuff to sort of click through and find out all the things they put in front of me is the answer to what i’m asking actually here well with chat g p t

bruno_caron:
m

ramsey_d_smith:
just gives you the answer gives you an answer and you can decide where the answer is right at this point

paul_tyler:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
but i imagine that over time those answers will be more and more right what i thought was interesting is that for all the financial questions i ask the it was a disclaimer at the end it said you really should talk to financial services professional and i’m sure they

paul_tyler:
my

ramsey_d_smith:
did that for regulatory reasons and it probably doesn’t make sense for a lot of those inquiries

paul_tyler:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
but there’s a lot of things that like a as a as a financial service

bruno_caron:
ay

ramsey_d_smith:
is professional you’re explaining over and over and over again to the same people

paul_tyler:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
that they could actually just get an answer to one single i sot of fairly noncontestable answer through a system like chat g p t so i have my eyes open for that i think that i think that that

paul_tyler:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
a i based a i based solutions will will i think be very helpful to everything that everything that

tisa_rabun_marshall:
okay

ramsey_d_smith:
we do

paul_tyler:
you i actually asked some questions about annuities tis a it actually might have

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

paul_tyler:
passed compliance muster

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

bruno_caron:
oh

paul_tyler:
might have

ramsey_d_smith:
there you go

paul_tyler:
possibly would have

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
i mean mean you

ramsey_d_smith:
m

tisa_rabun_marshall:
know paul our experience

ramsey_d_smith:
m

tisa_rabun_marshall:
building out

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
technology and platforms and fully online options eventually the human still wants to talk to the human it’s an assistant

ramsey_d_smith:
ye

tisa_rabun_marshall:
it can educate it can stream

paul_tyler:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
line but it seems like to me when

paul_tyler:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
we’re making these major financial decisions or minor financial

ramsey_d_smith:
ye

tisa_rabun_marshall:
decisions at some point before

paul_tyler:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
you send the check or draft the funds you want to at least make sure there’s somebody on the other side that has a real voice and has a real face so i think that they co exist i think they compliment but i don’t think one replaces the other

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
yeah

bruno_caron:
uh

paul_tyler:
i think yeah i think go ahead

bruno_caron:
ah

paul_tyler:
bro

bruno_caron:
and definitely agree with that and i think we’re at the again at the very

ramsey_d_smith:
m

bruno_caron:
beginning we think about

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

bruno_caron:
underwriting in terms of lifetiming we’re still the infancy

ramsey_d_smith:
m

bruno_caron:
of that is technology going to play a big part on this i’m very very bullish on on that so

paul_tyler:
yeah

bruno_caron:
there is a lot of aspects that can be that can be automated that can be that can be refined and improved with with technology but of course we have to keep in mind that to us point people need to need to talk to people um you know technology is not

paul_tyler:
oh

bruno_caron:
a replacement for fundamental fundamental concepts fundamental products that can be that can be offered the whole concept of risk pooling i think is still under under utilized and undervalued in in the current mark get and i think there’s a lot of there’s a lot of potential there ye

paul_tyler:
well and for people have worked with machine learning

bruno_caron:
yeah

paul_tyler:
let me say if you haven’t actually experimented with any of the stuff personally i would absolutely recommend it because

ramsey_d_smith:
yah

paul_tyler:
you realize

bruno_caron:
m

paul_tyler:
the end of the day machine learning

bruno_caron:
yes

paul_tyler:
is really a mirror of whoever trains the engine

bruno_caron:
yeah

paul_tyler:
i have i suspect that had people at ken fisher’s shop answer

bruno_caron:
oh

paul_tyler:
questions on annuities that questions

bruno_caron:
oh

paul_tyler:
would not have been as good as

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

paul_tyler:
what what i get today but you know

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
what’s what’s the bias in t i think it’s interesting what voices

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
get codified and we had really interesting discussion diversity and and bringing new voices into this industry

bruno_caron:
my

paul_tyler:
with our friends at a mutual martin you know came on and i thought we had a good discus and i don’t know did did our industry collectively take a few steps forward this year in terms of bringing new voices new open new opportunities or you think we took a step back i mean i don’t know which rams t so what’s your what are your thoughts there

ramsey_d_smith:
so look i think that from my perspective it’s the long run goal is pretty simple like if we have we have a country that’s diverse right diverse clients and the best way to actually sort of understand what the needs of diverse clients are and by the way you know it can be across a number of different sort of victors

bruno_caron:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
right it can be background tht can be you know ethnic background it can be language um there’s economic opportunity there you know i’ll tell you somethin here’s an interesting sort of analogy so yeah you guys watch r beast you know m beast is r beast is this is this youtuber

bruno_caron:
okay

ramsey_d_smith:
who’s gotten to be very famous he makes a ton of money but he re invests all his money into back into his back into his show one of the things he did he spent four million dollars to recreate squid game and he built the whole set he brought people in and but

tisa_rabun_marshall:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
what’s interesting

paul_tyler:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
is that like where he’s getting a lot of his growth is

paul_tyler:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
is he actually hired translators translators and he dubs so now now his his program is broadcast all over the all over the

paul_tyler:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
world so he actually has because i understand that he he has more has more fans outside the us than he does or at least sort of meaningfully significant significant amount so only bring that up as an example of like when you you think about what is it that i can do to fill that fill that space between what we do and what my customers want and think about every day that is that is that is the economic opportunity i think it’s hard to do that unless you’re right unless you have inputs if you have people helping you think about how to do that and so that’s that

paul_tyler:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
to me is that

paul_tyler:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
to me is why i think that again diversity across all modes i think is very valuable in business forward

paul_tyler:
you said what

tisa_rabun_marshall:
yeah

paul_tyler:
do you think more doors open yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
i think

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
the fact that the conversation has started is the start right it’s not something you solve in a year but i think the fact that we’re

paul_tyler:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
paying more attention to it we are bringing

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
more voices forward and at least being more intentional looking to

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
solve the issue we know exists in the industry which you know lacks diversity in many ways

paul_tyler:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
at least from an agent population i think ramsey’s

paul_tyler:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
example although it’s not financial services it shows like how it can be small acts i think when you talk about diversity and changing the face of the industry it feels so big and so large to solve but simple things like where a carrier

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
and we produce sure is for clients

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
in the english

paul_tyler:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
language could we also produce it in spanish like

paul_tyler:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
small small

paul_tyler:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
incremental movements forward is what helps the shift happen on thinking you know thinking about those and more small actions i think umulatively you know makes that shift that we’re talking about so i think it’s on

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
going i think well you know continue to three ways to solve and just hopeful signal that we’re having the conversation is different than maybe five

paul_tyler:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
years ago when we weren’t even talking about it

ramsey_d_smith:
so

paul_tyler:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
i’ll just

paul_tyler:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
i’ll

paul_tyler:
go ahead

ramsey_d_smith:
just just just add i mean so you obviously i have a

paul_tyler:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
perspective from a board level just given one of one of the boards i’m on and looking at other boards in the in the industry and looking at management teams in the industry and and i think that there’s

paul_tyler:
ye

ramsey_d_smith:
been there’s been a here’s been some really great changes in terms of greater

paul_tyler:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
female representation

paul_tyler:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
there is better representation

paul_tyler:
yes

ramsey_d_smith:
by people of color you know this is one to care is it a really shown a lot of commitment there so yeah i think it’s i think that there’s i think that there’s progress again i always come back to i think there’s i think there’s business opportunity that are on table uh that we can pursue in the best possible way if we have if we have teams that are that are kind of that are fully equipped

paul_tyler:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
it’s

paul_tyler:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
not just the right thing to do there’s business

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
value and economic gain to

bruno_caron:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
it

paul_tyler:
yes

tisa_rabun_marshall:
as well

ramsey_d_smith:
m

bruno_caron:
ah

paul_tyler:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
ah

paul_tyler:
well shifting

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
gears a little bit just thinking about what’s going forward now i’ll talk you one topic we discussed in twenty twenty two that i know will carry through to twenty three why because

ramsey_d_smith:
i

paul_tyler:
we had a big debate on a morning with our sales team around industries where are they going right we’ve got you know for the first time i think ever we had

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

paul_tyler:
some some voices on our sales team saying can you just stop with these industies you know the volatility these vile controlled industries mum it’s complicated people struggling to look through here ramsey this is topic

ramsey_d_smith:
ah

paul_tyler:
that’s close to your heart

ramsey_d_smith:
sure

paul_tyler:
we had lawrence

bruno_caron:
oh

paul_tyler:
you know from the

bruno_caron:
m

paul_tyler:
next standard on talking about some innovations to help people sort through this what’s your your prediction for twenty twenty three here

ramsey_d_smith:
so so and we had mike nelskyla on who

paul_tyler:
yes

ramsey_d_smith:
was involved in launching the very first one which was the trader vick way back in twenty twelve so look this is a business that i had that i was very involved in in my my prior career um i uh i think that it really comes down to figuring out well

paul_tyler:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
what is the you know what is the value proposition for the industry what is the value proposition for agents and consumers

paul_tyler:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
there’s a lot of things going on there like so

paul_tyler:
ah

ramsey_d_smith:
as a former banker well we were very much interested in creating in these because we could we could use our use our deep skill sets to add value and actually also get paid an incrementally higher margin for doing that versus just providing exposure to the s p five hundred and other sort of more standard industries from the perspective of the carriers and you know interest to hear what you’re you’re if you agree with this because he is what you do essentia the carriers as carriers were looking for ways to differentiate themselves so bringing in a unique strategy and you know a well named brand like you know my old employer

paul_tyler:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
you know or an asset manager wherever else she might go had had real marketing value and then from the customer’s perspective uh you know i think if you are if you if you if you if you read a random walk down wall street or you follow the you know which is burton mellkil’s book princedonian by the way

paul_tyler:
yah

ramsey_d_smith:
and uh

paul_tyler:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
well guess he teaches there i don’t know if he went there

paul_tyler:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
but uh

paul_tyler:
go with

ramsey_d_smith:
or

paul_tyler:
tigers

ramsey_d_smith:
or john or john bogle’s teach teachings in jumboglanded van gar there’s there’s a very strong argument that that

paul_tyler:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
you should primarily rely on onindusties like simple basic induces for a lot of your investing in exposure but my experience is that that people want something different so

paul_tyler:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
that consumers

paul_tyler:
ah

ramsey_d_smith:
consumers can see all

paul_tyler:
ah

ramsey_d_smith:
the numbers and the facts about the relative performance of passive industries but we’ll ultimately want something that has a different flavor something that’s interesting and i think that i think that the custom induscies that that have been imbedded in fixing exinuities i know are attractive to consumers they always have the opportunity to go with the simple index but think i think that

paul_tyler:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
the custom indices are attractive so

paul_tyler:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
i think

paul_tyler:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
that there are a lot of different forces at work there and you know we are there

paul_tyler:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
to many indexes

bruno_caron:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
i don’t know they’re all complicated not many of them are complicated i can say that many of them are complicated in there and they’re not easy to decipher and that’s from somebody who was in the business of creating and decie bring them

paul_tyler:
bruno are

bruno_caron:
up

paul_tyler:
our growth fixed into ccinuity you so you can

bruno_caron:
ah

paul_tyler:
keep me honest

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

paul_tyler:
or i think we have twelve options twelve strategy

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

paul_tyler:
so sometimes the same induscy in multile strategies sometimes the index and the strategy are unique horses going ahead burner are we gonna are we going to repeat

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

paul_tyler:
what we saw on the variable annuity side you know it’s twelve going to go

bruno_caron:
ah

paul_tyler:
to a hundred

bruno_caron:
well it’s good thing we have the index standard

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

bruno_caron:
and lawrence black and his team that came in and talked to us a few a few weeks ago

paul_tyler:
m yeah

bruno_caron:
to you know ramsey’s points to decipher through through those through those complex

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

bruno_caron:
those complex things again to ramsey’s points if there’s a marketing element to it

ramsey_d_smith:
m

bruno_caron:
clients always right so if if

paul_tyler:
oh

bruno_caron:
you know that’s the if that’s the appeal why not and if we you know if there can be a

ramsey_d_smith:
m my

bruno_caron:
kind of a better echo system including some some third party who actually who actually rates these these indasies um i think it’s there’s there’s a there’s a market for

paul_tyler:
yeah tsa it’s i think

tisa_rabun_marshall:
oh

paul_tyler:
we’re still doing an enormous amount of work on our websites supporting

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
very

bruno_caron:
oh

paul_tyler:
complicated vas that were sold last sale date

tisa_rabun_marshall:
yeah

paul_tyler:
were was when two thousand and

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

paul_tyler:
nine maybe

bruno_caron:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
earlier than that

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

paul_tyler:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
i don’t know or maybe six or

bruno_caron:
yes

tisa_rabun_marshall:
seven yeah

bruno_caron:
oh

paul_tyler:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
now

paul_tyler:
so

tisa_rabun_marshall:
long

paul_tyler:
so

bruno_caron:
my

tisa_rabun_marshall:
time

paul_tyler:
the yea these decisions are are it’s easy to add in one

bruno_caron:
oh

paul_tyler:
of these but tis as hard to support them right the support is incredible

bruno_caron:
yes

tisa_rabun_marshall:
yeah it’s hard to support i pretty sure

paul_tyler:
oh

bruno_caron:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
i haven’t

paul_tyler:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
looked at the reports

paul_tyler:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
lately but i’m pretty sure for many years

bruno_caron:
m

tisa_rabun_marshall:
and that train continues our number one colin topic from a service

paul_tyler:
yah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
perspective is what

paul_tyler:
h

tisa_rabun_marshall:
did i buy you explain to me how

paul_tyler:
m

tisa_rabun_marshall:
this works explain to me what my options

bruno_caron:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
are um and so the fact that that’s happening here over year whether it’s five ten fifteen years after the purchase it’s obviously an ongoing problem that we we’ve created for ourselves in the complexity of the product but if the client ultimately doesn’t understand the value on it you know it’s not going to serve anyone well right

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
so

bruno_caron:
the other thing to add to that is you know think of the client’s age fifteen or twenty years later down the road what

paul_tyler:
what

bruno_caron:
what was said twenty or fifteen years ago what are the cognitive capabilities of that particular

paul_tyler:
oh

bruno_caron:
client at that at that particular time we’ve had you know

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

bruno_caron:
vernon and his team talking

paul_tyler:
oh

bruno_caron:
to us about

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

bruno_caron:
you know

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

bruno_caron:
about those

paul_tyler:
oh

bruno_caron:
those particular issues um and you know that’s

paul_tyler:
oh

bruno_caron:
now that’s putting aside the economic environment that

paul_tyler:
yeah

bruno_caron:
can change significantly over those few decades so yeah these are all things to consider as as an industry

paul_tyler:
ramsey

bruno_caron:
keep

paul_tyler:
what do you predict will be the major topics of our discussion the next i won’t even say the next year the next six months

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

paul_tyler:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
i think we need to be paying a lot of attention to sort of the macro back drop and we talked about this a little bit before that before we started recording um with

paul_tyler:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
with interest rates going

paul_tyler:
m

ramsey_d_smith:
up which are response to inflation with you know

paul_tyler:
up

ramsey_d_smith:
an ongoing conflict in the ukraine and always sort of the potential for conflict you know tween with china base of tion there are

paul_tyler:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
there’s a lot going

paul_tyler:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
on energy prices have kind of bee all over the place

bruno_caron:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
there’s there’s

paul_tyler:
yes

ramsey_d_smith:
a lot of shifting paradymes so one of the things i’m just trying to keep an eye on is

paul_tyler:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
how do all the shifting paradyms ultimately

paul_tyler:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
impact our business so it could impact business at the distribution level

bruno_caron:
kay

ramsey_d_smith:
impact our business at the portfolio

bruno_caron:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
level on the general account right so so trying to trying get a sense for what

bruno_caron:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
all those impacts there are really kind of an area of

paul_tyler:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
a big focus for me so i think we need to be paying attention to that like particularly the housing market and how that flows through i want to i’ve a vested interest full disclose

bruno_caron:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
vested interest in seeing the in plan market continue to continue to grow or can continue to get more attention so rooting for all players

bruno_caron:
ye

ramsey_d_smith:
to do well there right there’s a there’s a handful of competitors

bruno_caron:
yah

ramsey_d_smith:
in that space it’s a young enough market that

bruno_caron:
yah

paul_tyler:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
we

bruno_caron:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
need

paul_tyler:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
we need some big successes there right to drive the broader market so i think that i think those are some those are some key things that are top of mind for me

paul_tyler:
prone how about you

bruno_caron:
yhdemography i think that we are entering in this the largest generation to retire and this

paul_tyler:
m

bruno_caron:
is happening

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

bruno_caron:
now

paul_tyler:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
my

bruno_caron:
and

paul_tyler:
okay

bruno_caron:
i just believe there’s a lot of different

paul_tyler:
oh

bruno_caron:
umequalibriums that are out there and in so many spheres of our our society ramsey mentioned

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

bruno_caron:
the economic one and i i hundred percent agree there’s also

paul_tyler:
oh

bruno_caron:
you know the job market for the young ones mentioned you sing market

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

bruno_caron:
you meant everything related to health care all of these these equalibriums will have to be re calibrated and this is happening this is happening now so i think that’s a hat’s the that’s the demography is a common denominator that that will you know

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

bruno_caron:
explain a lot of a lot

ramsey_d_smith:
m

bruno_caron:
of these these the situation going forward in the end this year

paul_tyler:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

paul_tyler:
it should

ramsey_d_smith:
i forgot

paul_tyler:
be no

ramsey_d_smith:
to mention

paul_tyler:
support

bruno_caron:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
right i forgot to mention crypto uncertainty

bruno_caron:
uh

ramsey_d_smith:
and and

paul_tyler:
h h

ramsey_d_smith:
but

paul_tyler:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
but also just the massive lay offs that are happening in the highest growth sectors of the economy so sorry

bruno_caron:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
jump back in there but those

paul_tyler:
no

ramsey_d_smith:
are

paul_tyler:
yeah well

ramsey_d_smith:
portages

paul_tyler:
you know i think yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

paul_tyler:
we take certain trends for

bruno_caron:
oh

paul_tyler:
granted people will get older i will we will

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
all get older next year one year according my math um

bruno_caron:
oh

paul_tyler:
but that changes

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
yes

paul_tyler:
what we were buying change or we

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

paul_tyler:
see this coming

bruno_caron:
hm

paul_tyler:
but you know like

bruno_caron:
yeah

paul_tyler:
some other issues somehow we get caught by surprise sometimes tease what do you think like if you were thinking of one or two topics you think that we must explore

bruno_caron:
yeah

paul_tyler:
more this year what would they be

bruno_caron:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
i agree with with what everyone said i was going to say you know that

bruno_caron:
ye

tisa_rabun_marshall:
high interest rate and environment and inflation and and looming lay offs and talk of recession it’s like we finally were coming to the first full year post

paul_tyler:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
andemic right

paul_tyler:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
so you

paul_tyler:
yeah

bruno_caron:
uh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
and now

ramsey_d_smith:
no

tisa_rabun_marshall:
this

bruno_caron:
h

tisa_rabun_marshall:
so

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
i think

paul_tyler:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
m

bruno_caron:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
you

paul_tyler:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
know i just i think there’re topics

paul_tyler:
m

tisa_rabun_marshall:
to dig into i think they’ll be topics top of mine and their real topics that are impact our industry

bruno_caron:
i

tisa_rabun_marshall:
and the economy so it’s going to be what clients and consumers want to understand

paul_tyler:
my

tisa_rabun_marshall:
and for those hitting retirement age really

paul_tyler:
ah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
a kind

paul_tyler:
m

tisa_rabun_marshall:
of unfortunate

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
last three to four years

paul_tyler:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
of changes in their

bruno_caron:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
in their balances

paul_tyler:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
right and so now now now what do we do what are

paul_tyler:
m

tisa_rabun_marshall:
the answers and why do we anticipate

bruno_caron:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
the shifts being so i

paul_tyler:
ah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
believe i don’t remember which financial service from it was but one of the big ones announce them pretty large lay off like biggest in history and i’m like well

paul_tyler:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
that is

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
a headline you do not want to see um but typically that is a domino effect

ramsey_d_smith:
m

tisa_rabun_marshall:
so i am if you ask me what i’m most worried about i think i would say through the economy and the job market

paul_tyler:
ah well

tisa_rabun_marshall:
yeah

paul_tyler:
we should see some interesting changing in products because you know we if i look back last year

bruno_caron:
stark

paul_tyler:
interest rise in interest rates brought the mica back like we’ve never seen it before

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

paul_tyler:
but you don’t know what what the ripple effects are i think agents in this space did very well i think some of the distribution entities

bruno_caron:
a

paul_tyler:
in the mid the shift was not

bruno_caron:
yes

paul_tyler:
favorable for

bruno_caron:
ah

paul_tyler:
the economics these firms by the way who

bruno_caron:
oh

paul_tyler:
are continuing

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

paul_tyler:
to acquire and reshape what the distribution landscape looks i think

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

paul_tyler:
i think we will start to see at the end of this next year some fairly significant changes in how the marketplace operates as some larger

bruno_caron:
yeah

paul_tyler:
end these have um much much much bigger footprint and impact on the business and i do think technology would be

ramsey_d_smith:
ye

paul_tyler:
have

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

paul_tyler:
continue to have a massive impact we will be doing another retirement event retire tech event i think in new york where we’re targeting at the end of first quarter more more details to come in the next next few weeks and hoping our listeners know who are in the area will come and join us or either on panels or in person

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

paul_tyler:
so h but i think at the end of the day it should be good for our business people do need stability they do need protection yes they

bruno_caron:
yes

paul_tyler:
are all getting older

bruno_caron:
uh

paul_tyler:
and and only our business offers the kind of protection guarantees that they need so anyway listen i look forward to another ramsey

bruno_caron:
yeah

paul_tyler:
i don’t know fifty episodes

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
let’s see what this

bruno_caron:
oh

paul_tyler:
year can you believe

ramsey_d_smith:
well

paul_tyler:
can

ramsey_d_smith:
i

paul_tyler:
you

ramsey_d_smith:
can’t

paul_tyler:
believe how

bruno_caron:
oh

paul_tyler:
many we’ve

ramsey_d_smith:
but

paul_tyler:
done

ramsey_d_smith:
but have to say you were just talking about the consolidation in the distribution channel i think that’s a very interesting friend that’s probably the show like what is

paul_tyler:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
what are the implications of if we can do that

bruno_caron:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
without like you know pissing anybody off

paul_tyler:
that’s going to be hard let me tell you

ramsey_d_smith:
but

bruno_caron:
good

ramsey_d_smith:
like

bruno_caron:
luck

ramsey_d_smith:
but you know because it’s interesting for a lot of reasons one is will it continue to his funding it would seem it’s private

bruno_caron:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
equity and then three

paul_tyler:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
like you know

paul_tyler:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
going back this issue of best interest like one of the challenges with with with with complying with some of these best

bruno_caron:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
interest

paul_tyler:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
standards is it requires an institutional framework that really isn’t hasn’t been in place but if you have consolidated entities that connect le economically set up like a compliance framework like not just the rules but the actual system the processes to sort

paul_tyler:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
of be compliant with the best interest standard then that’s that’s a that’s a positive outcome of that kind of consolidation so obviously there’s more

bruno_caron:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
there’s there’s prose

paul_tyler:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
and cons but i think that’s a i think it’s a conversation worth having that doesn’t have to be controvert true yeah

bruno_caron:
m

ramsey_d_smith:
uh

paul_tyler:
all right ell listen

ramsey_d_smith:
uh

paul_tyler:
look forward to

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
another year

ramsey_d_smith:
m

bruno_caron:
oh

paul_tyler:
with all of you and

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

paul_tyler:
you can’t wait to see the guests we have on if you’re listening

bruno_caron:
yeah

paul_tyler:
send us ideas

bruno_caron:
yeah

paul_tyler:
tell us if

ramsey_d_smith:
he

paul_tyler:
you want to be tell us if you

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

paul_tyler:
have you know who you’d like to hear

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

paul_tyler:
and we’ll do our best to accommodate so bruno thank you tessa

tisa_rabun_marshall:
oh

paul_tyler:
ramsey thanks and thanks for all the contributions over the past year and look for to another

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

paul_tyler:
great set episodes of

tisa_rabun_marshall:
my

paul_tyler:
that annuity show thanks

bruno_caron:
thank you

ramsey_d_smith:
good bye

tisa_rabun_marshall:
an

ramsey_d_smith:
take

tisa_rabun_marshall:
you

ramsey_d_smith:
care

Why Clients Shouldn’t Claim Social Security Early to Protect Portfolios

January 11, 2023 2022, Media, Wade Pfau No comments

John Manganaro
January 9, 2023

A new paper published in the January 2023 edition of the Journal of Financial Planning by Wade Pfau and Steve Parrish asks a question that is of paramount importance for financial advisors and their clients: Which Social Security claiming strategy generates the highest legacy value?

Parrish is an independent consultant, an adjunct professor at Drake University and The American College of Financial Services, and co-director of the American College Center for Retirement Income. Pfau is a professor of retirement income and director of the Retirement Income Certified Professional program at The American College of Financial Services.

As Pfau and Parrish note, the issue of when and how to claim Social Security is as important today as it has ever been for the typical retirement investor. On the one hand, other sources of guaranteed retirement income have diminished in prevalence, especially employer-sponsored defined benefit pensions. On the other, the average life expectancy for healthy Americans continues to rise, putting additional pressure on the typical retiree’s nest egg.

With such questions hanging in the air, Pfau and Parrish use a model based on historical return data to explore whether claiming benefits at age 62 leads to greater wealth at death compared with delaying Social Security benefits until age 67 or 70. In almost all cases, the pair finds, delaying payments is the superior method if one’s goal is to maximize wealth.

Faith in the Markets

According to Pfau and Parrish, there are significant and well-understood benefits to delaying Social Security. For example, monthly benefits will be as much as 77% larger in inflation-adjusted terms for those who claim at 70 instead of 62.

Still, many individuals decide to claim earlier for a variety of reasons. In some cases, Pfau and Parrish write, these early benefits selections are related to the individual’s personal situation. Some may feel they need the income to support their spending needs, or they have a medical condition that is expected to shorten their life expectancy. As Pfau and Parrish write, such choices are perfectly rational and may result in “better” outcomes for certain subsections of the U.S. retiree population.

However, there are also many individuals and couples who appear to have sufficient resources to cover their spending needs without relying on Social Security — but they claim early anyway. As the new analysis and prior research shows, this group is sizable, with only about one in 10 Americans saying they plan to delay Social Security until age 70.

Pfau and Parrish find that one common early-claiming motivator is the idea that individuals should claim benefits as early as possible in order to leave more of their assets invested in the market. In other words, they believe that the receipt of Social Security benefits will allow them to withdraw less from their investment accounts to support their retirement spending needs.

Does It Work?

Using historical return data, Pfau and Parrish directly tackle the question of whether claiming benefits at age 62 leads to greater wealth at death compared to delaying Social Security benefits until age 67 or 70. The pair use assumptions about life expectancy, current wealth and spending needs that reflect the current U.S. retiree population.

In crunching the numbers, the researchers find that delaying Social Security typically leads to higher amounts of wealth at death than claiming it at age 62, refuting the claim that it is a good idea to start Social Security benefits early just to keep more dollars invested in the market.

he percentage of cases where the legacy amount is greater when claiming at 67 or 70 compared to 62 ranged from about 60% to almost 97%.

According to the analysis, one key variable in the outcome of any given scenario being tested is the assumed allocation to stocks.

Specifically, the early claiming strategy tended to fare better with higher stock allocations. Similarly and as expected, the results of the market-based approach are superior when stock market returns are strongest in the years between when the individual turned 62 and 70.

As the researchers explain, the role of sequence of returns risk is key in the analysis. Those individuals who are lucky enough to experience strong returns early in their retirement years will end up with greater lifetime wealth, but the strategy is a risky one, as the percentages above demonstrate. As a purely logical exercise, Pfau and Parrish find, delayed claiming is the proven method for maximizing wealth.

More About the Math

According to Pfau and Parrish, the “internal rate of return” on delaying Social Security is actually a very favorable real return. They note that separate research has shown that those who delay claiming until age 70 and reach age 90 can generate the equivalent of a 5% real rate of return on what is essentially a government-backed bond.

Further, delaying Social Security benefits also tends to reduce the chances that an individual will run out of money before death, providing an additional benefit to this strategy.

Ultimately, Pfau and Parrish argue, the key point is that the guaranteed return provided by delaying Social Security is a highly compelling benefit for those who have the means to delay claiming. It effectively competes with the returns of all but the most aggressive (and lucky) investment portfolios.

And, as Pfau’s and Parrish’s work shows, waiting to claim benefits can not only reduce the chances that an individual will run out of money during their lifetimes, but it also increases the likelihood that they will be able to leave more assets.

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New Retirement Law Paves Way for Insurers to Tap Your 401(k)

January 11, 2023 2022, Media, Michelle Richter No comments

Austin R. Ramsey
January 9, 2023

Retirement plans featuring in-plan annuity investments stand to gain traction in the wake of a new landmark spending law, connecting workplace savers with lifetime income options and drawing closer ties with insurance providers that regulators have previously kept at bay.

SECURE 2.0 (Pub.L. 117-328), which President Joe Biden signed into law Dec. 29 as part of an end-of-year government spending package, streamlines the process for investing in insurance contracts that hedge against outliving retirement savings and nixes burdensome minimum distribution requirements for late-career annuity purchases.

Those measures come on the heels of the 2019 SECURE Act (Pub.L. 116-94) that carved out a safe harbor to protect employers from absorbing too much risk when offering in-plan annuity options. Taken together, the two laws set the stage for new qualified annuities to reshape 401(k) plans in the image of defined-benefit pensions and skirt federal regulations that crack down on retail annuity rollovers.

Insurers are still the benefactors of in-plan annuities. They’re able to access retirement customers in a different way—avoiding the regulatory pitfalls the Labor Department created for some financial advisers who have been labeled sharks that take advantage of vulnerable older Americans.

Decades of unstable interest rates have forced many employers to abandon traditional pensions in favor of defined-contribution, 401(k)-style plans that shift the responsibility for saving enough money to last a lifetime off company balance sheets and onto workers. Annuity contracts, although historically unpopular, present a viable solution to the problem of workers outlasting their savings, especially when configured as investment options inside a qualified retirement plan, advocates say.

“I think you’re going to see these options everywhere,” said Andrew Stumacher, managing director of custom defined-contribution solutions at AllianceBernstein Holding LP in New York. “We are definitely going to see this movement toward more income option prevalence in plans. We will now see more default solutions in place because SECURE Acts 1.0 and 2.0 have removed some of those big concerns that plans had.”

Big Business

Both SECURE Acts 1.0 and 2.0 were geared toward addressing retirement income disparity—a problem that has fueled a growing interest in annuities. That upsurge could bolster an evolving financial service market facing renewed regulatory pressures.

Wealth management is a higher-margin business than that of planned advisory services, causing the two industries to converge, said Michelle Richter of Fiduciary Insurance Services LLC, which advises plans on in-plan annuity sales.

Third-party retirement plan service providers are operating amid a wholesale shift in recordkeeping fee structures from an assets-under-management percentages to fixed-dollar amounts per participant. It’s the industry’s response to the rise in 401(k) fees litigation that’s seen participants demanding lower, simpler charges.

“Changes in recordkeeping fee structures are causing plan sponsors to want to keep participants in their plans through retirement,” Richter said. “Keeping participants in the plan through retirement means you need to have income-oriented solutions in that plan.”

Workers have historically accessed annuities in the retail market at or near retirement age. But brokers who made their money off commissions earned a bad name in past decades preying on older Americans with complicated, fees-heavy contracts that were nearly impossible to break.

“A financial adviser may have a conflict of interest and may be invested in getting the retiree to buy into all kinds of different assets,” said Olivia Mitchell, The Wharton School International Foundation of Employee Benefit Plans professor and executive director of the Pension Research Council. “Having a fiduciary in the plan take responsibility and do the research necessary for making sure the annuity provider is solid is really quite beneficial to both the insurer and participant,” she said.

Since the 2008 recession, the US Labor Department has waged an aggressive regulatory battle against those brokers by seeking to attach strict fiduciary codes of conduct on a broader array of investment advice. The Biden administration is expected to issue the latest iteration of that rule later this year.

That hurts insurance companies’ bottom lines; it’s no surprise that the industry clung to SECURE Acts 1.0 and 2.0 like lifelines, Richter said. Groups such as the American Academy of Actuaries, National Association of Insurance & Financial Advisors, and Life Insurance Marketing and Research Association supported both measures and celebrated their passage.

Rather than relying on customers from financial advisers, insurers market in-plan annuity products directly to plan providers. Institutional, in-plan options for which the SECURE laws help clear a path are a way for those companies to plug into the lucrative retirement market by cutting out the broker-dealer middlemen.

“There’s just a different structure there because they’re in an institutional product, and you don’t have the intermediary there,” said Bryan Hodgens, head of distribution and annuity research at LIMRA, the largest trade association representing insurance and related financial service industries.

Lifetime Income

Guaranteed lifetime income benefits appear attractive, but advisers face challenges in participant uptake, as they seek to overcome a deep-rooted annuity taboo. The shark-filled retail annuity market created a negative image for annuities of all shapes and sizes that could be hard to shake.

Roughly seven in 10 retirement plan participants and sponsors would consider programs that offer guaranteed income “extremely” or “very” valuable, according to a 2021 Teachers Insurance & Annuity Association of America study. Nearly 90% of plan sponsors surveyed would reportedly consider implementing an in-plan annuity.

That’s the throughline that Congress is reacting to in its latest SECURE iteration, Richter said, but the reality is that participants aren’t getting the message. Just over half of participants in that same TIAA study said they were enthusiastic about in-plan annuity products, but many still favored 401(k) plan modifications to avoid outliving their savings.

“It’s a messaging problem,” said Richter. “There’s going to have to be a massive education campaign necessary to separate institutional, in-plan annuities from retail annuities in participants’ minds.”

To date, only 14% of defined-contribution plans offer an in-plan guarantee option for participants to annuitize their plan balances, according to LIMRA. Insurers recognize that challenge, but they still face structural obstacles to participant-level product delivery. They contract with recordkeepers who contract with plan sponsors who work directly with participants.

“The insurance companies are just now realizing we don’t have the mechanism where we can go explain our story and talk about our products,” said Hodgens. “There are three or four audiences that they are actively, consciously thinking about with their sales teams and internal resources.”

Recordkeepers may be appeased by better product options that align with their fee structures, but plan sponsors need to learn that lifetime income products give them more control over whether and when a worker retires, said Stumacher. Companies who want to replace older workers with fresh talent can use guaranteed income options as an enticing benefit.

Participants, meanwhile, may find themselves enrolled in plans that already feature annuity products whether they realize it or not. SECURE 2.0 facilitates automatic enrollment in new workplace plans starting in 2025. Since most default retirement options are target-date funds, that’s the key area for growth that insurers are eyeing.

“That combination is going to automatically get more money into these annuity products,” said Hodgens.

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The Growth of Integrity

January 11, 2023 2022, Media, Sheryl Moore No comments

John Hilton
January 1, 2023

Listen to Bryan W. Adams talk for very long and you will hear a story about the Adams Funeral Home in small-town West Texas.

Adams grew up there, immersed in the family business run by his parents, Allan and Gail. The business of death can be unsettling in many ways, particularly when loved ones pass on amid poor financial planning.

Young Bryan Adams saw these heartbreaking scenes and will tell you it led him to a career in retirement planning, and eventually, to start Integrity Marketing Group in 2006.

Adams was just 30 years old at the time.

“I remember coming home every night and my mom and dad would talk about families that didn’t prepare for the inevitable,” Adams said during an October industry conference. “For my dad it was like a ministry almost. He wanted to serve people and pretty much gave away funerals. My mom was the businessperson.”

Adams took a little from both of his parents in turning Integrity into a juggernaut disrupter of traditional insurance distribution. While less is known about private companies such as Integrity, the known numbers put Integrity at or very near the top of the insurance marketing mountain.

The company perfected the new model: use of financial might to build massive scale in order to consolidate and perfect back-office distribution. With a near-relentless acquisition appetite, Integrity boasts a network of about 500,000 agents and advisors who serve more than 11 million clients annually.

Integrity’s rocket-ship growth has the industry buzzing. Five years ago, the company acquired Neishloss & Fleming, a Pittsburgh-based company that distributes Medicare Advantage and Medicare supplement insurance plans. Its agent network numbered 120,000 then, according to an Integrity news release.

Integrity is not the only marketing company reaching for scale. Although the companies deny being motivated by competition, Simplicity Group and AmeriLife Group are also growing dramatically via acquisition activity.

The Big Three’s relentless growth is altering the distribution landscape, said Sheryl Moore, president and CEO of Moore Market Intelligence and Wink Inc. Small to midsized IMOs and FMOs are being gobbled up so quickly, it is forcing many to reconsider their plan, she said.

“It is hard to compete against an Integrity, Simplicity or AmeriLife in terms of sales, and therefore annuity commission payouts,” she said. “For this reason, I’ve seen friends talking to these firms when they previously wouldn’t have considered selling so soon. It just seems like for those who had planned to retire in five to seven years, I am seeing more of them entertain discussions with these three firms than I would have anticipated.”

The benefits of scale

Certainly, not all agencies selling out to the super-IMOs are doing so reluctantly. In fact, many are eager to receive interest and offers from the big players. To understand why, one needs to look at what it means to be an Integrity “partner,” as Adams calls them.

In an era of increasing regulatory obligations and segmented marketing audiences, combined with shrinking profit margins, agencies can use the help with back-office functions.

Integrity touts streamlined administrative functions through centralized areas, such as people and culture, technology and innovation, finance, legal and compliance, and “world-class” advertising and marketing. In addition, Integrity offers partners access to proprietary technology through its omnichannel insurtech platform.

“These comprehensive insurance and financial services offerings include valuable agent resources, such as product development, quoting and enrollment systems and customer relationship management software,” Integrity said on its website.

For a smaller agency like Richman Insurance Agency, a Dallas, Texas-based IMO that joined Integrity in August, that kind of backstop can reduce or eliminate a lot of potential headaches.
“This partnership with Integrity is pure opportunity,” said Rob Richman, president of the agency, “to do things you never thought you’d be able to do on your own. And to do it with a big team of resources.”

Adams balks at the perception of Integrity as a voracious acquirer of agencies. He mentions the May 2022 acquisition of Ritter Insurance Marketing, a midsize IMO specializing in Medicare Supplement and Medicare Advantage plans and based in Harrisburg, Pa.

“I’ve never been to [Craig Ritter’s] office,” said Adams, who previously founded Legacy Safeguard, a final expense company. “I’d probably just get in the way. It’s really about how do you come alongside of them, give them more technology, more support, more resources to grow faster and serve more people. So, I think our model is very different than the others, because we’re not trying to acquire business to try to run it.”

Not in the plan

Integrity made its first acquisition in 2013, and to hear Adams tell it, the deal came about almost by accident.

“We never thought about acquiring a business,” he said. “It was never part of our plan. But an insurance company came to us, a really large insurance company, and said, ‘Hey, we’ve got an older distributor that doesn’t have a succession plan. Would you acquire them?’”

That was quickly followed by another, similar offer, Adams recalled, and it quickly became clear that there was a vacuum in the distribution chain that needed to be filled.

In 2016, Integrity took a giant step forward with a capital infusion from private equity firm HGGC, the shop co-founded by NFL Hall of Fame quarterback Steve Young. Young now serves as the managing director of Integrity.

The pace of Integrity’s acquisitions quickened in 2022 as the company snared some high-profile targets:

» Ash Brokerage. Acquired in May, Ash Brokerage is one of the largest insurance brokerages in the United States, with more than 400 employees nationwide. In 2021, Ash Brokerage helped to place over $2 billion of premium, while underwriting $25 billion of face amount for American families and businesses.

Based in Indiana, Ash is a full-service brokerage offering life insurance, long-term care, disability, annuities and retirement solutions.

» PHP Agency. PHP, which stands for “People Helping People,” serves nearly half a million Americans nationwide by offering life and annuity products through its team of more than 27,000 agents. Based in Addison, Texas, PHP joined Integrity in July.

» Annexus. Integrity sealed one of its biggest deals to date with a late-July acquisition of Annexus Group, a product design and distribution company with $45 billion in combined sales and partnerships with some of the biggest companies in the industry.

In 2022, Annexus expects to place approximately $7 billion in annuity premium and $150 million in target life insurance premium, the company said on its website. Annexus is one of the top annuity innovators in the business and touts itself as “the No. 1 independent retirement planning product design and distribution company in America.”

A public future?

In 2021, Integrity received a second infusion of private equity capital, this time from Silver Lake. A leading technology investor, Silver Lake took a minority stake and a board seat with its $1.2 billion investment.

The Silver Lake investment was earmarked for Integrity technology platforms.

“Insurance and wealth services are crucial components of the health care and financial markets — industries ripe for transformative innovation,” said Egon Durban, co-CEO of Silver Lake.

But the mounting investment from private equity has many in the industry wondering if Integrity is destined to go public at some point.

Integrity became an employee-owned business in 2019 with the formation of the employee ownership plan, and at that time paid out a retroactive cash distribution of $50 million to Integrity’s 750 employees. Adams said there are no plans to shake up the company’s structure.

“I don’t really have a desire to take this company public,” he said. “It’s a business that I founded and remain passionate about in how we serve people better together. So, our goal is to continue to grow and continue to expand. And at this point, we don’t have any desire or need to go public.”

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Save Launches ESG Investing Product

January 11, 2023 2022, Media, Michael Nelskyla No comments

Pymnts
December 29, 2022

Save has launched a savings product that is focused on ESG investing.

The investment advisor and banking solutions provider said in a Thursday (Dec. 29) press release that its Market Savings program offers an option that provides a yield from iShares ESG Aware exchange-traded funds (ETFs) and other ETFs.

The ESG Market Savings portfolio aims to maximize environmental, social and governance (ESG) characteristics and exclude companies with certain practices, according to the press release.

Since the launch of this ESG portfolio, about 10% of the people who have signed up to Market Savings have selected the Save ESG portfolio, the release said.

“Consumers are increasingly turning to ethical choices in all aspects of life including investments,” Save Founder and CEO Michael Nelskyla said in the release. “We see it as our fiduciary responsibility to offer ethical investing through our Market Savings program for those consumers who seek these choices.”

In addition to offering this sustainable savings option, Save is collaborating with Reforest’Action and underwriting the planting of one tree for every $5,000 deposited in its ESG Market Savings, up to $250 million in deposits, according to the press release.

The Market Savings program on Save’s Savetech platform offers a yield that varies according to underlying market performance, and customer deposits are FDIC insured, the release said.

In another recent embrace of sustainability goals, Egyptian financial firm Contact said Dec. 26 that it is offering a new product dubbed “Green Finance” that lets consumers pay in installments with “monthly and quarterly repayment systems reflecting Contact’s understanding of agricultural activity and its cash flow cycle.”

Contact’s product will fund projects such as solar panels, irrigation systems and greenhouses, as well as sustainable farming efforts.

An additional approach to supporting ESG goals is being delivered by providers of regulatory technology (RegTech) that build a detailed picture of the carbon emissions and fossil fuel exposure of complex financial instruments.

As PYMNTS reported Oct. 2, these RegTechs employ both the financial data that they and rating agencies have always mobilized as well as alternative datasets that have not traditionally been exploited, such as industrial information, ESG reports, corporate relations data and various third-party datasets.

Established firms in the space like Moody’s, S&P and MSCI have all built their own ESG ratings tools, while more niche players have also built solutions for investors looking to get a better understanding of their portfolios.

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Episode 177: Finding The Emotional Side of Financial Planning With Jamie Hopkins

January 6, 2023 2022, Jamie Hopkins, Podcast, Retirement No comments

Our emotional relationship with money is complex. How we feel about it often shapes how we spend and how we save it. Joining us today is Jamie Hopkins, Managing Partner of Wealth Solutions at Carson Group and co-author of “Find Your Freedom – Financial Planning for a Life on Purpose”. Jamie talks about how advisors and clients need to rethink goals and processes for a successful planning outcome. We also sneak in Jamie’s great perspective on the recently-passed SECURE Act 2.0.

Links mentioned in the show:

https://www.carsongroup.com/news/financial-planning-for-a-life-on-purpose-jamie-hopkins-ron-carson-release-new-book/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamie-hopkins-esq-llm-cfp%C2%AE-chfc%C2%AE-clu%C2%AE-ricp%C2%AE-022a502a/

https://www.jamiehopkins.com

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Episode Transcript

paul_tyler:
i this is paul tyler and welcome to another episode of the annuity show and we have our full crew here today bruno welcome from the north

bruno_caron:
good morning thank you

paul_tyler:
ramsey you’re looking very very

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
professional today on a friday

ramsey_d_smith:
and i’m north of where i

bruno_caron:
m

ramsey_d_smith:
usually am i’m in new york instead of atlanta it’s always always

bruno_caron:
m

ramsey_d_smith:
glad to be on the

bruno_caron:
m

ramsey_d_smith:
show

bruno_caron:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
and back in new york

paul_tyler:
tis good to see you so

tisa_rabun_marshall:
morning

paul_tyler:
they was today was momentous we crossed the billion dollar sales threshold which we were all kind of the sweating for the last last few months here but it

tisa_rabun_marshall:
little

paul_tyler:
was big

tisa_rabun_marshall:
virtual

paul_tyler:
er

tisa_rabun_marshall:
pep rally this morning was

paul_tyler:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
a nice way to start on friday

ramsey_d_smith:
gratulations guys that’s

paul_tyler:
yeah

bruno_caron:
m

jamie_hopkins:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
fantastic

tisa_rabun_marshall:
thank

paul_tyler:
so it

tisa_rabun_marshall:
you

paul_tyler:
was

bruno_caron:
well

paul_tyler:
it

bruno_caron:
then

paul_tyler:
was a big deal for you know where we started a few years ago where we are

tisa_rabun_marshall:
yeah

paul_tyler:
today but it was has it been an interesting mark at the last six to nine months we have a great guest on factor returning guest and today and we

bruno_caron:
a

paul_tyler:
have on our show jamie hopkins

bruno_caron:
oh

paul_tyler:
who almost needs some introduction for our audience but is managing

bruno_caron:
m

paul_tyler:
nor of wealth solutions

bruno_caron:
m

paul_tyler:
at carson group and co

bruno_caron:
m

paul_tyler:
author of a new book called find

bruno_caron:
m

paul_tyler:
your freedom financial planning for life on purpose life of purpose

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

paul_tyler:
jamie welcome

bruno_caron:
m

jamie_hopkins:
paul and team ramsey t s bruno good to see everyone

paul_tyler:
yeah

bruno_caron:
good to see you

paul_tyler:
lots you know i guess lots changed some hasn’t you know i think we had you on the show back just right

bruno_caron:
yeah

paul_tyler:
right when we

bruno_caron:
yeah

paul_tyler:
were sort of headed nose

bruno_caron:
oh

paul_tyler:
first

jamie_hopkins:
yeah

paul_tyler:
into the demic right

bruno_caron:
m

jamie_hopkins:
there

bruno_caron:
m

jamie_hopkins:
was a pandemic paul you know that

bruno_caron:
ah uh

paul_tyler:
there was

ramsey_d_smith:
m

jamie_hopkins:
yeah

paul_tyler:
the books books say it i think we were you know talking about you know all of the type of

jamie_hopkins:
no

paul_tyler:
adaptation that has to take place and

jamie_hopkins:
hm

paul_tyler:
so today listen we’d like to cover couple of topics one is when i talk to you about our book um love to get your perspective on know what has changed and not changed in the last couple of years as your

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

paul_tyler:
talking to you advisors and then you know topic i think that’s on everybody’s mind the new secure act you know coming out out of congress so

jamie_hopkins:
hm

paul_tyler:
with that i think talk a little bit about the book you actually first chapter or second chapter

bruno_caron:
yeah

paul_tyler:
leads out about you say financial plan is personal is very deeply personal store what was yours and and

ramsey_d_smith:
yah

paul_tyler:
love to hear some of the back story here

jamie_hopkins:
yeah well we can i’ll get to my story yeah the book’s been fun i talk a little bit about the process of it because i think that was a good lesson in it is actually started a book last year an got about half way through and ended up scrapping the whole thing and then writing this one so i scrapped half a book which feels if you’ve ever written anything is like you know when you talk about sunk costs like that was one where you’re like shot i just finished this and it was just the wrong book and so we scraped that and then i wrote you know find your freedom and that hit wall street journal best seller i think you know maybe two three weeks ago so that’s awesome it’s exciting just to see it actually kind of pick up steam and resonate with people and yeah roan shared a little bit of his

ramsey_d_smith:
ah

jamie_hopkins:
story in the book you know more of the book my story honestly if you if you read it what you’ll see is you know ron’s kind of adding pieces and it’s more of a journey along where my path has gone and so i started off just with you know the loss of my dad at an early age it is eight years old and kind of some of the trauma that comes along with that and sharing different family dynamics and my experience s with money and gifting and scarcity mind set young age and you know my dad did construction and past the passed away did gutters and you know fell off of a roof when it was icing up and you know passed away and i was eight years old and kind of left my family in a very difficult situation which is not you know it’s not uncommon out there like since i wrote the book it’s actually a really kind of powerful thing is i’ve just gotten a lot of emails with people sharing their own stories of lost loved ones and it’s not always parents sometimes it’s sisters or brothers but it’s it gives people that permission to open up about that because often you know that stuff we’re kind of like told like you shouldn’t talk about it and i don’t know that many people have much

ramsey_d_smith:
m

jamie_hopkins:
education

ramsey_d_smith:
m

jamie_hopkins:
or training or experience like how to deal with people grieving

ramsey_d_smith:
m

jamie_hopkins:
it actually came up this

ramsey_d_smith:
m

jamie_hopkins:
morning we had an advisor that lost two clients and mean passing away in the last two weeks of the year and we were just talking about like all this stuff that we kind of naturally do that’s kind of wrong like we try to pat people and tell them it’s okay which is like the wrong way to roach somebody grieving right you’re actually kind of what you’re actually naturally doing there is reacting and saying like you’re making me uncomfortable so please calm down right like that’s actually what you’re doing in that moment and people generally speak don’t like that if you look at a lot of the research it’s more like you don’t touch people it’s more like hey i’m listening you’re active you lean in you know it’s more on that side of things and we don’t always react well with that but it’s interesting just seeing these messages come through you know since i’ve read the book and put it out there

ramsey_d_smith:
he i mean that’s a that’s an interesting that’s an interesting life lesson and it speaks to it speaks to how there’s like so much interaction in this space between between this of the quantitative and but the financial part of it and the emotional elements and it’s really it’s really it’s really hard to be effective in this space in the personal finance pate if you don’t sort of navigate both of those

jamie_hopkins:
hm

ramsey_d_smith:
both of those tracks so thank you for sharing that that’s remarkable

jamie_hopkins:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
it was one of the things i got wrong about the first book ramsey as i wrote the whole first book like it was like a text book on financial planning

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
like i just dove right in to planning and numbers i had all these spread sheets that i was working on and i was like like i might like this but like man this is boring and so when i re read the book the whole first half of it is like what is freedom mean to you what’s your relationship with money what’s the trauma that you’ve survive through you know what are the experiences that you don’t want to have or do want to pass

bruno_caron:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
along to your children and airs and know what’s the legacy you want to leave behind so that’s the whole front half it’s really there’s you now no talk numbers or finances really it’s about you as a person and finding that level

bruno_caron:
m

jamie_hopkins:
of freedom and happiness

ramsey_d_smith:
and so in terms of terms of now you’ve you’ve done that in the book in terms of how you how do you how you apply that how do you apply that

bruno_caron:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
with your your day to day business at carson like so with the advisors that you like you essentially

bruno_caron:
m

ramsey_d_smith:
advise the advisors

jamie_hopkins:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
how do you navigate that with you know with a with a hyperforming set of advisors that carson

jamie_hopkins:
it’s been fun so a lot of people look at things like a book and it’s part of a much bigger strategy right like i wrote a book this time for a very particular purpose which was to my view like codify our approach to financial planning at carson for clients prospects and i mean advisors to write like anyone who wants to kind of know what it is and so the second half the books really the financial planning process that we use at carson and what we kind of expect from a planning promise now that was like what i would say is like the retail side of codifying it internally we had something that we call approving process which is our systems and processes for

ramsey_d_smith:
yes

jamie_hopkins:
financial planning inside of

ramsey_d_smith:
m

jamie_hopkins:
carson and that’s where our technic rates like work flows into our training integrates and then we’ve actually built out internally the book find your freedom we have a find your freedom planing process for advisors too so they can actually like la ridge pieces of the book with their clients and then how that ties back to all the resources we have so if we you know one of the chapters later on we talk about long term care so then in that work area for advice ere’s inside of carson you’ve got training materials you’ve got like the fact finding spread sheets if you want to go out and talk to somebody about long term care then we’ve got the resources that we have internally and then the tools to anna is it so for the advisor side we’ve actually built all of that on the back and so they’ve

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
systematized their practice

ramsey_d_smith:
m

jamie_hopkins:
and that’s really where ran i mean the reason that we’re all sitting here too is like you know ran built this amazing firm on the west side right he was the now i think that you guys were talingabout the billion dollar celebration which is amazing and ryan always tells this story about a l p l back in the nineties ryan was the first or at least at l p t hit twenty five million of advisory assets right and the l p l threw a party it was his big celebyouknow because like that was first he was like this trail blaze around nowadays right people get a single client with fifty million of advisors

ramsey_d_smith:
m

jamie_hopkins:
but he built this whole process and that’s really where we kind of came about and so i sit across wealth solutions now which is everything kind of financial planning oriented and we still

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
have that as core which is coaching and process and we believe in those two things and putting clients first and i think as long as you do that it’s not just in this world but in most areas of the world you’ll see success right you deliver value and you articulate value and you have a repeatable way to do that and then you know that’s where businesses grow

bruno_caron:
that’s great and in your book you somewhat frame and you bring forward the fact that your personal back ground has a lot to do with how you’re going to manage money m are there any common nominators or any ways to frame you different category of various people are various schools of thoughts that are that are out there

jamie_hopkins:
yeah so i would say just like with clients or advisers

bruno_caron:
m

jamie_hopkins:
or even your own life there’s a lot

bruno_caron:
m

jamie_hopkins:
of bucketing or segmentation or mental accounts whichever term you want to use going

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
on all the time so know when i look at advisors you know we run a coaching program at carson we got about twelve hundred firms that use carson coaching but they’re all over the place you have growers you’ve got lifestyle businesses you’ve got people that really want to acquire and then their approaches to how they operate their business are very different you know you have some that have to

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
be really great general managers you know you want to have nineteen different offices all over the country you take a very different approach to the person who wants to work with thirty five clients and then if you’re thinking about individuals i think the really interesting thing how what

bruno_caron:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
i

ramsey_d_smith:
m

jamie_hopkins:
save domain specific we

bruno_caron:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
are and a lot of times you like oh like that’s a brilliant person like i look at rams like man ramses such a smart guy but there’s probably a couple

bruno_caron:
m

jamie_hopkins:
of areas where like erybody on the show would be like ramsey really knows nothing about this like he’s really smart in some areas right but like the semariis like he’s probably not

bruno_caron:
m

jamie_hopkins:
as sharp and

bruno_caron:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
it’s the same for me like i know like you know i’ve never this is when kind of silly but i’ve never played a game of baseball in my entire life i’m a pretty good athlete it was a two sport division one athlete i could probably learn to play baseball but like i can’t catch with a glove on i can catch without a glove on i can’t you know i can’t hit i can’t do any of those things in baseball but right i was you now captain of a division

bruno_caron:
a

jamie_hopkins:
one scholarship athlete like i’m a good athlete or i was you know i’m old but you know i was very domain specific there and when i think about my knowledge i am pretty good in financial planing tax areas if you take me into the c f a world and analyzing funds i can’t analyze a fund

ramsey_d_smith:
m

jamie_hopkins:
for you in any

ramsey_d_smith:
m

jamie_hopkins:
meaningful way so even in our world i become very domain specific and then when you look at individuals doing their planning

bruno_caron:
m

jamie_hopkins:
they might be do like risk tolerant in one area of their life and completely risk a verse in another and i find that to be super interesting even inside of like retirement accounts versus their play funds people behave so differently you know i’m fairly like i would say an investing like i personally

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
don’t mind taking on a lot of risk but then when you look at other areas of my behavior i don’t exhibit that same aspect like i don’t like gifting a lot of money i’m not very frivolous on that side i like more certainty when it comes to certain areas and so yeah the domains of

bruno_caron:
m

jamie_hopkins:
people and approaches whether it’s planning or business

bruno_caron:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
or your own investing it’s very different for a lot of different people and i think the main take away in the book is like that’s perfectly okay to your question bruno is like it’s okay like and you can give yourself permission to do it differently than your neighbor does if that’s what makes you happy you don’t have to do it the same way that i do or some you know talking

ramsey_d_smith:
hm

jamie_hopkins:
ahead on t v does

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
or what congress tells you to do either i like you can do it your way where you find your freedom oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
so i’ll jump in and have a kind of a follow up question to that what do you think it’s kind of your opinion on the influence or the impact of setting that style you mentioned like the scarcity mind set of growing up and experiencing a last early obviously had an income impact to your household is it how your parents raised you

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
and what their savings patterns where is it your level of success you make more money so you can make different decisions what do you think is the biggest sort of influence or combination of influences that set that that risk tolerance in that mind set

jamie_hopkins:
it’s such an amazing

tisa_rabun_marshall:
i

jamie_hopkins:
question and i don’t think that there’s a simple

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
answer to this but there are

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
some things that you know from research out there and then some of the things i feel like i’ve learned at least my expec it’s just

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
tell me and you

tisa_rabun_marshall:
yes

jamie_hopkins:
actually have both so you have this you know the saying like that apple doesn’t fall far from the tree or whatever which is this

tisa_rabun_marshall:
m

jamie_hopkins:
idea of like you know you have some natural habitat which is forming your experiences in life i mean that’s kind of what it’s talking about right like gravity maybe if on the top of the hill it can roll the way down to hell that maybe if you get really lucky some animal picks you up and carries you another fit feet and like but that’s kind of it right like we’ve extended like the furthest out version

tisa_rabun_marshall:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
they may be fallen to a river and but like you can you can move

tisa_rabun_marshall:
m

jamie_hopkins:
but it’s not easy and so a lot of this stuff is i always say our and is it i don’t

ramsey_d_smith:
okay

jamie_hopkins:
necessarily define us

tisa_rabun_marshall:
yes

jamie_hopkins:
but they do drive us and so it’s this idea of like where that came from is driving us but you do have people that react the opposite that their parents or grandparents react and that’s this idea of you know kind of generational experience s being passed on and there are some researcheses that try ma in a family can be passed on for up to eight generations which is tremendous when you think about that i see more clearly three but i totally

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
understand wherein cases right like um you

tisa_rabun_marshall:
hm

jamie_hopkins:
know if you talk about slavery in the united states clearly there’s generational that’s more than three that we’re still having impacts of that today right like that’s

tisa_rabun_marshall:
hm

jamie_hopkins:
pretty clear we see that uh but other cases maybe three generations is more normal for some trauma and but like i used the example of my mom and my grandmother in the book and neither one of them are happy about that by the way to like

tisa_rabun_marshall:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
it’s caused like an internal you

tisa_rabun_marshall:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
fight because i’m

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
like they love gifting and the book came out by christmas and there you’re scrooge and like the the

tisa_rabun_marshall:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
way that they express love is to buy gifts for their family members right and that’s

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
how they express love i however don’t like gifting now like i’m not a huge fan of giving gifts it’s not the way i express love even though i understand that like for my mom that’s super important and

tisa_rabun_marshall:
hm

jamie_hopkins:
you know i don’t want to stop her from doing that but it’s explaining that like hey like i don’t get the same enjoyment you did so i kind of had like the counteraction of that but if you look at my mom she clearly inherited that from my grandmother to my aunts are identical they all love christmas and going big and every year they say they’re gonna spend less and they spend more right in that but they love

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
it and i don’t want to take that away

ramsey_d_smith:
ah

jamie_hopkins:
from them but that’s one that’s passed on then for me it changed right like my experiences were enough different that i had a different reaction to that so it definitely does influence us it drives us it’s not all inherited that we’re going to be the same as the previous generation and then i think ultimately you know we probably focus in the behavioral world too much on changing the individual and not enough on changing the environment and i think that’s a really important lesson the more i spent in the behavial world and change be if you’re is that we usually say like well how can we make bruno or paul act differently the reality is it’s really hard to make a person

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
act differently what we have to do is change the environment that they’re in and then more likely to see behavior change so the best example of that in our retirement world has been the four o one k retirement plan automatic enrolment and autoescalation is that we actually accepted

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
the fact that no matter how much education we did and t v ads and pamphlets and to lunches to get people to learn about it we couldn’t change individual behavior to save more that like most of

ramsey_d_smith:
m

jamie_hopkins:
that stuff kind of went to waste

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
it was not very efficient or effective and then we decided to do i change the environment and so by changing the environment we created a different system right that allowed people to save more by giving them choice too but then they didn’t make the choice right we just let things be but that is actually a true example

ramsey_d_smith:
m

jamie_hopkins:
of how we change

ramsey_d_smith:
m oh

jamie_hopkins:
the environment and not the individual to change the behavior and i think that we skipped that a lot and if you the more it’s just interesting because in the behavioral research world the actual research world they’re very focused on the environmental factors when we get the personal finance it’s kind of like the game a telephone and we’ve liked to or did it three times and

tisa_rabun_marshall:
hm

jamie_hopkins:
like we have like a variation of what the research actually said but

ramsey_d_smith:
m

jamie_hopkins:
we do tend to put too much of it back on

paul_tyler:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
individuals which i think is interesting and maybe it’s just because we and personal finance and we deal with individuals so we want to take those lessons and apply them to people but a lot of that research is actually about system and how do you change systems not how do you change in individuals behavior so i know i kind of went way off there

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
tis but

tisa_rabun_marshall:
no

jamie_hopkins:
hopefully it’s

paul_tyler:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
somewhat

tisa_rabun_marshall:
that’s

jamie_hopkins:
valuable

tisa_rabun_marshall:
good and

bruno_caron:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
to your point right that’s what

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
the new legislation

paul_tyler:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
is doing it’s changing the environment

jamie_hopkins:
hm

tisa_rabun_marshall:
um

paul_tyler:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
and then hopefully

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

paul_tyler:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
you know behavior shift based on those construct

paul_tyler:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
if you will

paul_tyler:
now

tisa_rabun_marshall:
thanks

paul_tyler:
his generation al your your

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

paul_tyler:
generational hero legacy really does

ramsey_d_smith:
kay

paul_tyler:
shape

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

paul_tyler:
how you look at money and

jamie_hopkins:
hm

paul_tyler:
it is

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

paul_tyler:
interesting jamie the holidays bringing out

ramsey_d_smith:
okay

paul_tyler:
like you know i i’m gonna say my mother really was a child of the depression and it was just fresh still right and then my wife’s family

bruno_caron:
m

paul_tyler:
had very very different background and just the christmas traditions are so different it’s it’s it’s it’s kind of facceting but very important for an advisor to understand that i mean think if i were

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
working with rams or tea

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
to be able to communicate

tisa_rabun_marshall:
yes

paul_tyler:
that level would make me much more powerful adviser i’ve watched ran on linked in i love his content i mean i would not look at his ontentand say he’s a financial advisor i think he’s more of a life coach

jamie_hopkins:
yeah

paul_tyler:
now how how

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

paul_tyler:
how are you thinking

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
about you know the future

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
you know your future advisor

ramsey_d_smith:
m oh

paul_tyler:
what are the skills or firm

tisa_rabun_marshall:
oh

paul_tyler:
you mentioned you know some persons good you know some people go to tennis some people are good at baseball um how does how does the dadanmac shift if trying to get you know me to really trust give you the information trust you but really

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

paul_tyler:
let you help me unwind some of these things that may be leading me down the wrong financial path

jamie_hopkins:
it’s a great question and you know this is the third run i’ve known now to you know there was a run that looked a lot like

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
the original financial advisor right

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

bruno_caron:
hm

jamie_hopkins:
the run today is a little bit and that and his role shifted right he’s you know i think he still has a couple clients

paul_tyler:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
that he works with that are fairly large he’s had for a long time but for the most part he’s delegated those out and that’s i wrote that week growth for him yesterday and ended up with thirty nine different things that in my chicken scratch in this note book here i still write everything in a book but that could help advisors grow and i thought the super interesting when i ended up with thirty nine was you know they’re not all like not everybody would use all thirty nine right like but all thirty nine of them i kind of took

ramsey_d_smith:
m

jamie_hopkins:
away an advisor working with us

ramsey_d_smith:
m

jamie_hopkins:
somebody would benefit

ramsey_d_smith:
m m

jamie_hopkins:
from all thirty nine um when you think about advisors and growth and i mentioned a little this before was you know you have to deliver value you’ve got to be able to articulate value but then growth is kind of that rate s volume like how much of it can you do at what rate and ultimately in our space one of the biggest challenges for advisors to grow is time because our profession is still very client equal some amount of time right like different advisors spend different amounts of time with them pretty much they all equal if you’re in the personal advisory world and you’re an advisor a client equals some amount of your time so how do you delegate away and free up as much time as

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
possible to do the thing that deliver the most value in so whether that’s becoming the rain maker lead advisor and you’re not really working with a lot of clients day to day and you’re outsourcing some of that in sourcing it and then daily tasks like are you the one doing trades and what we’ve seen is you know from carson’s perspective when we’ve brought on advisors you know when i joined we were about seventy people we have three hundred fifty in the home office

bruno_caron:
m

jamie_hopkins:
and we went from you know six billion and seven thousand households to forty five thousand households in the last like five years

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
and so just kind of exploded and a lot of advisors have come on board but it’s taking a lot of that other stuff away so they can focus

bruno_caron:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
on being an advisor and sometimes it’s challenging and ron’s great at this is chall is the mentality of like so you think that picking all the stocks is really what adds value to your clients and you know

ramsey_d_smith:
m

jamie_hopkins:
a lot of advisers are still out there doing that and really what you are doing in that situation ninety five percent of the time is just putting a time restraint on the ability for you to deliver value and impact more people and so you run into those advisors and they’re not growing as fast as other people are growing and they’re wondering why and you look at their day and you said well eighty per cent of your day has nothing to do with the true value you deliver so you need to get rid of eighty per cent of that day and then you have the capacity now to four x your value right and so that’s usually where it starts it’s kind of where our coaching drove from and then i think a really other interesting area of growth opportunity for advisor out there today and i talked about this with some of our about forty advisors on the call right before i hopped on here was like paying attention to wallet share i run into advisors all the time they think they have a lot more wiletshare they do you know ted who at the time i think was doing about the best out there of collecting wilt share they had about seventeen to eighteen percent of a client’s willet share so if you were like working with a major custody and your client’s money is all at one you probably don’t have right like it’s just it’s just math right like you can’t have a hundred per cent like all these advisors can’t have a hundred per cent custodian when the custodians look at and realize

ramsey_d_smith:
m

jamie_hopkins:
they have eighteen per cent right like it just doesn’t work you probably have a lot less of their wild chair than you even think you do and sometimes you know when you really dive into it five six years later like oh i didn’t know you had three other advisors right like yeah i’ve got a hundred thousand here and fifty thousand here and even when they’re doing planning sometimes that stuff you know sits outside of the review and i think the more planning you do and i don’t know who is saying this earlier but the more listening you do in those situations the better when you just talk a lot that’s when you don’t get the answers back to that ah there are some you know technologies out there now that are allowing you to see those held away assets more clearly so you can have those conversations too about like hey we see this is for here do you want help with that or even just wrap that number into the planning even if we’re not managing it is helpful

ramsey_d_smith:
so i would love to to transition a bit and spend a little time talking about secure two point o you’ve you’ve been very prolific already on on on link den you know sharing what you think are some of the critical of i think there’s a hundred different modifications that have been

jamie_hopkins:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
made in the retirement space and you highlighted some of the more important ones but you brought

jamie_hopkins:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
up auto rollant earlier as sort of a key element and it seems to me that that’s a it’s also enhancing that particular function is also a part of the secure two point would love to get your take on what you think the issues are and key opportunities for really for participants and for advisors

jamie_hopkins:
i’ll try to dive into that bit you know one thing i will kind of put a caveat around

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
right now is that you know even though you said i’ve been prolific i think i’ve done three presentations i’ve got three different dab

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
and i don’t know all this other stuff i wrote twenty eight pages on it the very first

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
day it came out so that was like and i woke up the next morning at seven thirty a m and presented and i was like that’s probably the first power point presentation that was done on it was that morning at seven thirty a m because it was you know about twenty four hours when the first version of it dropped but we’re going to figure out planning portunities with this throughout the year some of it will come down

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
to when the is department of la labor treasury which is tied to the i s but when they start giving us more guidance and some of the rags here it will open up or shut down certain planning opportunities but when you think about a hundred plus provisions uh it’s pretty tremendous and you know it’s probably the a really big

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
retirement

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
you know i would say modification kind of this one secure act pension protection act i don’t see another one in the next coming years now like this what we’re going to go to coming up now is the self security medic are type conversation s less so about modifications to the existing system so i think that’s the good news is change on this side has been a lot in the last couple of years expected to slow down for a while now most of the bills that have been floating around in d c directly related to this i think we’re kind of we’ve had enough of that right now there’s probably six really big areas of planning opportunity in there so i kind of start with those if we want to dive into them so the first one is just look r m d s are changing again so that’s a big that’s a big part of it right you were seventy three already now this year we’ll go to seventy five and about a decade gives people more time to push off take with draws out the reality is that will impact some people it’s not super clear on the like that’s that provision alone is not like going to live up to the secure name setting every community up for retirement enhancement even at age seven and a half i think it was like only about eighteen percent of people didn’t take out more than their arm d at that point see two i don’t know the is has ever given us data but it’s less than eighteen per cent and then seventy five will be something less than that and then also remember only about two thirds of americans have anything save for retirement at all so we’re talking about eighteen percent of two thirds of america and then you know ten percent of two so we might be talking about five less than five percent of people that end up being impacted by that type of change now for advisors clients it’s like half your clients so it’s much more substantial when you get to the advisory world

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
of the impact gives more opportunity for wrath conversion but it does open up conversations about do you need to take more

ramsey_d_smith:
ah

jamie_hopkins:
out anyway even if all of these are pushed off that we’re doing conversions

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
we’re just taking distributions under the ten year distribution rule for a lot inherited accounts it’s

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
not clear that the best strategy is

ramsey_d_smith:
m

jamie_hopkins:
just push off everything into the future because you could be actually creating a bigger tax explosion at the end now by cramming all these assets into this tax defer distributed over a shorter period of time in a potentially higher

ramsey_d_smith:
m

jamie_hopkins:
tax rate environment than we’ve ever seen before which i think is how most people feel i don’t talk to very many people who are like i expect taxes to be low or in ten years i just i’ve never run in like if i get in a room full of a hundred people and i say raise your hand if you think taxes are gonna be lower in ten years nobody raises her hand it’s just not what the macro environment is looking like in them country so deferring taxes too long right now might not be the best thing huge planning opportunity there when it comes to the plan side there’s you know that’s where most of the provision changes are i will say if you haven’t really dove into it really honestly like these are pretty good common sense changes from congress i know shocking everybody feels like is he really being honest there yes like these are pretty common sense changes they mostly make plans

ramsey_d_smith:
yah

jamie_hopkins:
more efficient more easy to run more flexibility right simplifying down things that added a lot of complexity to the industry that is good i mean like just across the board five years this simplifies

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
some of the stuff in the plan world even requiring simplified roll over forms and standardization there like that is good for everybody that didn’t benefit a single entity out there by having complex role of reforms annuities especially lax got boost in probably two different areas at least the aggregation rules around r m des and i raised that’s a super complex area and they did simplify that down it doesn’t penalize annuities as much which i think is interesting i haven’t spent enough time to figure out the impact on at

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
and q lax nobody’s written

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
on it nobody’s really discussed it yet but it’s there too and it’s kind of that’s a side endeavor they did improve q x by removing the

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
twenty five per cent account uh you know aggregation total amount you could put in and increasing the total amount that you could send into premiums so i’d say those are two good things added some abilities for some additional

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
writers to go on a new it is and not

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
run a foul of

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
r m d rules

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
so annuities got to boost in here inside the plan so definitely an opportunity

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
to find more creative annuity lifetime incomes solutions and put more money into inside of your qualified

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
plan arena so i hit three there i will pause i did say i have six but i know that’s a lot so i don’t know if we want to hit any of them or you want me to just you know i can talk on this stuff days and days and days so we don’t have that time

ramsey_d_smith:
perhaps on the on the elements that the elements that are conducive to sort of broader employer participation in the space so multi multi employer plans and like i think that’s a i think that’s sort of an important development

jamie_hopkins:
it is and you know that was part of the original secure act they made some clarifications here and just who could participate that is still in areas i put that caveat in a lot of companies plan providers are still waiting for guidance there though i think before we see that take off of the maps and the peps they had increased but i think before we actually see that massive explosion there if it ever occurs we still need guidance from especially the labor department on that side but this it reduced down some complications the kind of easier version of this four o one k in there where it’s only employ e contributions similar thing another attempt how do we get small businesses a cost effective plan to roll out we did mention automatic enrollment escalation making that mandatory for larger newer plans running forward

paul_tyler:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
i’ve written on that and a little bit

paul_tyler:
right oh

jamie_hopkins:
while that one sounds super nice that would have been more effective like

paul_tyler:
ye

jamie_hopkins:
twenty years ago just reality is like

paul_tyler:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
the impact of that one will be super slow and really long term most large companies have plans in place most small companies that are startups will be exempted out of the rule and even most new plans i think it’s like ninety per cent have automatic enrolment today anyway so it’s not like it sounds good i don’t know how many actual plans and people get impacted or get access due to that change and then we always have to couch does behavior end up different than we think the simplified easy to use for one k does that create plans at are less costly to the employer and so people don’t end up with as much money in there there’s no no we don’t add matching in so people don’t say like there’s

ramsey_d_smith:
my

jamie_hopkins:
some of that behavioral stuff in there that like we could get wrong on that one like it again sounds good there’s a reason to try it but we could look back in a decade and be like well that was a failure the mira which is a great example of that that the federal government tried to decade ago now

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
right like

paul_tyler:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
maybe two thousand fourteen was a complete failure they ended up spending more money on it than money ever actually

paul_tyler:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
went into it like think about that right like the cost

paul_tyler:
yes

jamie_hopkins:
was more expensive than the total number of dollars that ever moved into it and in theory like it was a good attempt they probably didn’t let it run long enough either but it was such a massive failure so quickly that they did kind of cut bay

ramsey_d_smith:
ah

jamie_hopkins:
and leave it administration

ramsey_d_smith:
ah

jamie_hopkins:
s changed it wasn’t the only thing but

paul_tyler:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
i do think that for advisors

paul_tyler:
a

jamie_hopkins:
and plans

paul_tyler:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
small businesses the enhanced credits er big and so that’s a talking point was an edition in

paul_tyler:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
the original secure act and it was enhanced in this one so talking to people who might have looked at setting up a plan for their workplace before they didn’t do it the cost

paul_tyler:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
they did lower down the cost by enhancing credits there again and i think that was kind

ramsey_d_smith:
m

jamie_hopkins:
of lost we talked about it secure act past the end of twenty nineteen ten the world shut down he went around talking about enhance small employer credits

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
and twenty twenty

ramsey_d_smith:
ah

jamie_hopkins:
for setting up retirement plans like

ramsey_d_smith:
m

jamie_hopkins:
that was item number like five hundred to ninety two of the most important things to worry about in twenty two right but this kind of gives us that talking point to go back out help small businesses set up plans run them at a more cost effective and less kind of laborious

paul_tyler:
ah

jamie_hopkins:
and

ramsey_d_smith:
i mean so that sort of what i see is a bit of an open question is so secure to your point secure act one point o came out in twenty nineteen and it may have been a bigger deal had there not been a pandemic secure two point o does two things one it enhances but it also sort of reminds the whole world about the secure act in the first

jamie_hopkins:
m

ramsey_d_smith:
place so you know it’ll be you know what are your thoughts on that you think that there will be more reaction to secure two point to

jamie_hopkins:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
secure access at collectively

jamie_hopkins:
yeah

paul_tyler:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
in the next year or two that we saw in the last year or two as a result of the fact that at least at least we have a handle on managing the pandemic if we’re not completely out of it m

jamie_hopkins:
rams it’s a great question it gave it another opportunity

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
so you know when i went into twenty twenty

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
i thought my whole year of twenty twenty was going to be me going around talking to advisors and clients about secure act and that it happened i had three months of that you know at best i don’t know it’s two and a half months and you know there was more

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
attention to the original secure

ramsey_d_smith:
m

jamie_hopkins:
act than this one though like i can just tell media coverage clients and you know kind of being the sequel to anything usually you don’t always live up to the original interestingly

paul_tyler:
m

jamie_hopkins:
enough like i think this is a better bill than the first one the fir bill secure act one point though we had a lot more rushing at the

paul_tyler:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
end of the year there were some planning opportunities this one is more like an enhancement to

paul_tyler:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
the system the first bill if you really dive into it the major visions were what i call stealth tax increases i mean that was the major provision in there with the

paul_tyler:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
change of beneficiary design beneficiary inherited accounts and moving that to a ten year and that a tax revenue generator for the government i mean that’s the major provision in the entire thing and you know the the flip side was and i remember talking about this like this bill will have impact if the mts and pep kind of take off

paul_tyler:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
after secure act one point and they haven’t yet

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

paul_tyler:
m yeah

jamie_hopkins:
so this is another attempt to enhance them it’s not that they didn’t occur but

paul_tyler:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
they didn’t take off it’s not you know like i think i saw somebody say

paul_tyler:
m

jamie_hopkins:
around this one a hundred million more americans will have access to retirement accounts and like

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
that

paul_tyler:
m

jamie_hopkins:
sounds nice

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
in an article but you know i don’t believe that through this one either like i just don’t like we’ve tried

paul_tyler:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
to simple cept ar cept

paul_tyler:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
we’ve tried this over and over again and wanting behavior to change it’s probably my best point going back to something earlier is just giving small bit this says more opportunities does not change their behavior like simples and saps are super easy to run they don’t cost a whole lot they’re less complex than a new four or one k or a map or a pep is and we still didn’t

paul_tyler:
m

jamie_hopkins:
use them right so it does kind of go back to it’s not won’t have some impact but the notion that it’s gonna give

paul_tyler:
my

jamie_hopkins:
a hundred million people more retirement

paul_tyler:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
savings i don’t believe

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
i just i don’t see

paul_tyler:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
it you know

ramsey_d_smith:
the question is how do we change

jamie_hopkins:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
the in to you to your earlier

jamie_hopkins:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
point so how do we how do we change the environments that changed the behavior what’s the what’s the auto enrolment nudge equivalent

jamie_hopkins:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
in

jamie_hopkins:
so

ramsey_d_smith:
in the mepinpepspace

jamie_hopkins:
so it’s like one step further than we got right which

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
everything is steps towards something so now we said hey plans you have to set up automatic enrolment esculation and then there’s going to be some day where we’re going to have to that fundamental decision do we require employers to have at some size right so it’s not going to be five person companies but at fifty person companies in you have to low people some system in which they are automatically enrolled and states have started to look at that right and

paul_tyler:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
they’ve gone that way outside of the federal government now what will push the federal govern to have to deal with that is when we get twenty

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
five states doing it twenty five different ways you know right now we kind of have two ish states messing around in there it’s not enough to force the federal government’s hand but when we get twenty five there and states doing it twenty five different ways then that’s when the government said he look this is a federal issue stop messing around with retirement stuff that’s our land we’re going to deal

ramsey_d_smith:
m

jamie_hopkins:
with this and but that’s like that’s something that i would say we don’t have agreement on in d c today like this other stuff we can get agreement on do we require employers to go down that route now look like we require employers to put money in for retirement accounts today that’s half the social security of medic care like we do

paul_tyler:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
require that like it’s not a thing that

paul_tyler:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
we have decided not to require in this country but are we going to take that next step and require i don’t think it’s going to employer contributions which will be the next version but do we require you to set up that mapper

paul_tyler:
ah

jamie_hopkins:
pep or allow people to automatically enroll into a state run i like some option where we say at fifty people or more you’re goin t automatically enroll people into some type of savings and they can optout but you as an employer are going to set that up that is the changing of the environment that would put a hundred million people into saving but it’s kind of one step further than i think anyone is willing to put political capital behind today

paul_tyler:
yeah well isn’t where we’re close to top of the hour here fasting discussion

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

paul_tyler:
jamie ramsey i think there’s still another piece of legislation pass don’t know call it retire hard

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

paul_tyler:
ree

jamie_hopkins:
yeah

paul_tyler:
you

bruno_caron:
m

paul_tyler:
know

bruno_caron:
m

jamie_hopkins:
and it’s definitely

bruno_caron:
m

jamie_hopkins:
a christmas movie because

bruno_caron:
m

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
every year this passes like two days before

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
christmas ball

paul_tyler:
yeah

bruno_caron:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
so

paul_tyler:
yeah you noticing these big block

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

paul_tyler:
there are three hours

jamie_hopkins:
yeah

paul_tyler:
and three and a half hours

bruno_caron:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

paul_tyler:
long sometimes like

jamie_hopkins:
hm

tisa_rabun_marshall:
oh

paul_tyler:
i don’t know if

bruno_caron:
yeah

paul_tyler:
you saw avatar i was along one let’s

bruno_caron:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
not yet

paul_tyler:
read this is

bruno_caron:
yeah

paul_tyler:
a secure act to jamie

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

paul_tyler:
god bless you for

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

paul_tyler:
ripping

tisa_rabun_marshall:
yeah

bruno_caron:
m

paul_tyler:
through that that quick that was a lot

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
m

paul_tyler:
so i guess

bruno_caron:
h

paul_tyler:
let me just ask you tis a at last question thought on on the topic we’ve covered a lot here

tisa_rabun_marshall:
yeah it’s more of a comment than than a question

bruno_caron:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
don’t know if it already exists but i think

paul_tyler:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
i have

bruno_caron:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
your next book jamie

bruno_caron:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
uh when you were talking about how people place value

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
on giving and

bruno_caron:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
receiving gifts reminded me of the five love languages we

jamie_hopkins:
hm

tisa_rabun_marshall:
kind

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
of dissect that in our romantic relationships if you will but i feel like a financial advisors took that approach with clients right understood their motivations maybe

bruno_caron:
m

tisa_rabun_marshall:
those conversations would look a little different so

paul_tyler:
ye

tisa_rabun_marshall:
you know five five love languages for finance that’s your that’s your next book

jamie_hopkins:
yeah

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

paul_tyler:
i’d

jamie_hopkins:
love

paul_tyler:
like

tisa_rabun_marshall:
so

paul_tyler:
that

jamie_hopkins:
it

tisa_rabun_marshall:
thanks for thanks

bruno_caron:
m

tisa_rabun_marshall:
for your

ramsey_d_smith:
m

tisa_rabun_marshall:
time today i

bruno_caron:
yeah

paul_tyler:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
fancy fast eating in that um that

paul_tyler:
oh

tisa_rabun_marshall:
attitude and emotion around money is something that in particular generationally how it’s passed down is a fascinating topic so i appreciate you covering it today

bruno_caron:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
thank you and yet the five love languages i do mention it briefly in the book i don’t think i don’t even know if i mentioned all five but i talk about my spouse and i have different love languages right

tisa_rabun_marshall:
hm

jamie_hopkins:
and that does show it

bruno_caron:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
it does show its face to relationship and how we interact with money and like my wife likes time saving activities so the best gift i can give her are things like hiring a long care company even though i love doing that it’s something i like but it’s beneficial rehearsal that’s a better gift it’s a better way to spend money to create you know exponential more happiness so it’s a absolutely

paul_tyler:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
perfect example tsa

tisa_rabun_marshall:
it’s

paul_tyler:
yeah

tisa_rabun_marshall:
key understanding that

paul_tyler:
oh excellently bruno

bruno_caron:
hey if i could sneak one last one in

paul_tyler:
yeah

bruno_caron:
if we married

paul_tyler:
my

bruno_caron:
the two topics we had today everything that impacts us from from you know from the book and

paul_tyler:
m

bruno_caron:
secure two point o u we see the generations that we have you know seen growing and retiring living with

paul_tyler:
m

bruno_caron:
with pensions and strong social security um now this

paul_tyler:
yeah

bruno_caron:
is this environment has changed

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

bruno_caron:
how is that going to or people going to live up to that

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

bruno_caron:
in the next the end of generations to come now that that environment has changed i do we flip back the environment how do we how do we go to that step

jamie_hopkins:
brit’s a great question what happened over time as we moved we used to

paul_tyler:
m

jamie_hopkins:
talk about the three legged stool right employer

bruno_caron:
ah

jamie_hopkins:
individual and government and we shifted that burden more to the

bruno_caron:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
individual so that that stool is wobbly now

bruno_caron:
m

jamie_hopkins:
because the idea is you need to make enough money to say if you got to figure that out mostly on your

paul_tyler:
h

jamie_hopkins:
own the question will become you know does the government who sets the policy from the people but you

bruno_caron:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
know will we

bruno_caron:
ah

jamie_hopkins:
stabilize that in some way and do we shift more burden back to the employer do we shift more burden back to the government and

bruno_caron:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
right now the burden has shifted on the individual and the you know i’d say the financial markets have tried

paul_tyler:
ye

jamie_hopkins:
to fill in that piece right we have more products and

paul_tyler:
ah

jamie_hopkins:
more advisors solutions and technology

paul_tyler:
yes

jamie_hopkins:
but it’s you know i don’t know that

paul_tyler:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
it’s enough long term i though one thing i always talk about if it comes up is social security

paul_tyler:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
i do not believe and i could be wrong here because i’d be wrong about lots of things or anything

bruno_caron:
m

paul_tyler:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
but i do not

bruno_caron:
m

jamie_hopkins:
believe personally that we

paul_tyler:
ah

jamie_hopkins:
will see a time where sociasecurity has gone in my life in this country

paul_tyler:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
a lot of people believe that but more of a lack of nderstanding how the system works we are not saving enough today for the people who are in their forties and fifties to offset the loss of social security so unless as a country either one we just literally can’t for did any more which is always a possibility

paul_tyler:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
but two i don’t think we’re okay with saying that we’re fine with all of our seniors living in poverty like i just don’t you know

bruno_caron:
m

jamie_hopkins:
more than half of retired s right

paul_tyler:
we

jamie_hopkins:
two thirds of retire

paul_tyler:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
their primary source of income is sociacurity i don’t think we’re okay walking around saying we’re okay with two thirds of our seniors living

bruno_caron:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
in poverty by letting the system go to the wayside

paul_tyler:
yeah ramsey

bruno_caron:
well thanks

paul_tyler:
i

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

paul_tyler:
know

bruno_caron:
and

paul_tyler:
you could you’ve got a lot here

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
a lot

jamie_hopkins:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
yeah

paul_tyler:
more

ramsey_d_smith:
we covered up we covered a lot of a

paul_tyler:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
lot of issues i totally agree with you jamie

bruno_caron:
m

ramsey_d_smith:
on the social security and its role in in us culture and society i think it’s hard to view a version of it it’s much less than what we we currently see it um

paul_tyler:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
thanks very much for your perspective on on the secure act sort of like the both its potential and maybe it some of his limitations i really like this this this notion of of can give the framework of changing the environment and not focusing on behavior because i agree with you completely that you can spend a lot of time on education and it’s you can’t educate people at the same rate that they need to actually s the you the content of that education in their day to day lives so creating an environment that sort of leads them or nudges them to where they need to be while they learn i think is critical to success so thank you for sharing that

jamie_hopkins:
i’ll drop one of my friends jess she said this is my favorite thing i’ve ever said and i messed it up sometimes but it’s you know education without execution just creates smarter people doing the same dumb thing ans

paul_tyler:
oh

ramsey_d_smith:
all right that’s that’s our quote

paul_tyler:
that that

ramsey_d_smith:
that’s

paul_tyler:
is

ramsey_d_smith:
our quote

bruno_caron:
m

ramsey_d_smith:
from the linked in post

paul_tyler:
that’s great well hey

ramsey_d_smith:
what

paul_tyler:
jamie

tisa_rabun_marshall:
good final

paul_tyler:
thanks so

tisa_rabun_marshall:
note

paul_tyler:
much of your time we’ll put

bruno_caron:
i

paul_tyler:
links to your your book in the notes if anybody wants to find that

ramsey_d_smith:
m

paul_tyler:
we’ll put a link there

tisa_rabun_marshall:
yeah

paul_tyler:
link your website maybe an end firm as well so thanks for your time one

tisa_rabun_marshall:
oh

paul_tyler:
last off the cuff question here did you go to burning man with the

jamie_hopkins:
no i didn’t

paul_tyler:
with

jamie_hopkins:
go to

paul_tyler:
you

jamie_hopkins:
burning man

bruno_caron:
uh

jamie_hopkins:
with ran

paul_tyler:
it

jamie_hopkins:
know you know look rick ran hired ran hired me delegated so he could you know i read

paul_tyler:
uh

jamie_hopkins:
the secure act and he can go

tisa_rabun_marshall:
oh

jamie_hopkins:
to burning man

paul_tyler:
h

jamie_hopkins:
he’s

ramsey_d_smith:
but

jamie_hopkins:
living

bruno_caron:
yah

paul_tyler:
yeah

jamie_hopkins:
his freedom and live in mine so

paul_tyler:
okay

jamie_hopkins:
yeah that’s

paul_tyler:
all

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

paul_tyler:
right

jamie_hopkins:
look he’s a smart guy

bruno_caron:
uh

paul_tyler:
all right listen thanks to all our listeners give us feedback

bruno_caron:
h

ramsey_d_smith:
oh

paul_tyler:
shoot us lots as you always do and

bruno_caron:
yeah

paul_tyler:
join us again next week for another episode of that annuity show thanks

Episode 176: Thoughtfully Recommending Indices with Laurence Black and Branislav Nikolic

December 30, 2022 2022, Branislav Nikolic, Laurence Black, Podcast, Retirement No comments

# 176 – Thoughtfully Recommending Indices with Laurence Black and Branislav Nikolic

Indices continue to proliferate within the fixed indexed annuity market. Yes, choice is good for the client but it can create a complicated environment for the agent or advisor. Laurence Black, Founder of the Index Standard and Branislav Nikolic join us again to talk about how their company makes providing good information easier.

Links mentioned in the show:

https://www.theindexstandard.com

https://www.linkedin.com/in/laurence-black-664918/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/branislav-nikolic-8a71b657/

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Episode Transcript

1
00:00:02,876 –> 00:00:03,016
[paul_tyler]: hi

2
00:00:03,090 –> 00:00:04,200
[branislav_nikolic]: oh

3
00:00:03,116 –> 00:00:07,890
[paul_tyler]: this is paul tyler and welcome to
another episode of that annuity show bruno

4
00:00:07,860 –> 00:00:08,730
[branislav_nikolic]: yeah

5
00:00:08,613 –> 00:00:08,954
[paul_tyler]: welcome

6
00:00:10,139 –> 00:00:13,725
[bruno_caron]: thank you great to be here and
excited about

7
00:00:13,746 –> 00:00:14,066
[paul_tyler]: tessa

8
00:00:13,765 –> 00:00:14,166
[bruno_caron]: our guests

9
00:00:14,267 –> 00:00:17,934
[paul_tyler]: glad you got your yahyeahtisa good to
see you

10
00:00:18,752 –> 00:00:19,429
[bruno_caron]: yeah

11
00:00:18,828 –> 00:00:19,739
[tisa_rabun_marshall]: to see you good morning

12
00:00:20,266 –> 00:00:21,268
[paul_tyler]: yeah we’ve been

13
00:00:21,238 –> 00:00:21,259
[bruno_caron]: m

14
00:00:21,308 –> 00:00:24,353
[paul_tyler]: busy on a lot of fronts last
few weeks haven’t we

15
00:00:25,320 –> 00:00:25,340
[tisa_rabun_marshall]: i

16
00:00:25,535 –> 00:00:26,557
[paul_tyler]: and ramsey looks

17
00:00:26,400 –> 00:00:26,503
[ramsey_d_smith]: ah

18
00:00:26,597 –> 00:00:29,722
[paul_tyler]: like you’re i think you’re broadcasting from
an undisclosed location today

19
00:00:30,177 –> 00:00:30,557
[ramsey_d_smith]: indeed

20
00:00:30,343 –> 00:00:30,684
[paul_tyler]: correct

21
00:00:30,698 –> 00:00:32,601
[ramsey_d_smith]: looks kind of like a wine seller
doesn’t it but

22
00:00:33,076 –> 00:00:33,257
[paul_tyler]: yeah

23
00:00:33,756 –> 00:00:33,776
[tisa_rabun_marshall]: m

24
00:00:34,464 –> 00:00:34,864
[ramsey_d_smith]: it’s not

25
00:00:35,585 –> 00:00:36,169
[paul_tyler]: yeah ah

26
00:00:36,387 –> 00:00:37,108
[ramsey_d_smith]: a very

27
00:00:36,975 –> 00:00:37,016
[paul_tyler]: ah

28
00:00:37,168 –> 00:00:37,389
[ramsey_d_smith]: happy

29
00:00:37,272 –> 00:00:37,416
[tisa_rabun_marshall]: right

30
00:00:37,449 –> 00:00:43,439
[ramsey_d_smith]: to be here and really excited to
welcome lawrence black in the end standard uh

31
00:00:44,040 –> 00:00:48,247
[ramsey_d_smith]: the the index standard has been our
lead sponsor for the better part of the

32
00:00:48,287 –> 00:00:52,434
[ramsey_d_smith]: last year so we’re really excited to
have them on they’re doing a lot of

33
00:00:52,494 –> 00:01:01,329
[ramsey_d_smith]: very interesting things in and helping the
the index community unpack the best way to

34
00:01:01,429 –> 00:01:06,257
[ramsey_d_smith]: allocate industies and the best way to
understand their role in a broader portfolio so

35
00:01:06,638 –> 00:01:10,586
[ramsey_d_smith]: with that lawrence i want to start
out with you and you also have a

36
00:01:11,227 –> 00:01:13,732
[ramsey_d_smith]: special guest a new addition to your
team you’re going to want to introduce

37
00:01:13,479 –> 00:01:13,500
[branislav_nikolic]: m

38
00:01:13,772 –> 00:01:15,496
[ramsey_d_smith]: as well so i will pass it
on to you for that

39
00:01:15,374 –> 00:01:21,180
[laurence]: indeed so good morning every one it’s
great to join you so as you guys

40
00:01:21,240 –> 00:01:24,285
[laurence]: know it i’ve been with you a
couple of times in the past great to

41
00:01:24,325 –> 00:01:28,913
[laurence]: be back here again and i’m delighted
to introduce brand nicolitch who’s just joined us

42
00:01:29,013 –> 00:01:31,659
[laurence]: from from begpardon let me try a
re

43
00:01:31,749 –> 00:01:31,770
[branislav_nikolic]: m

44
00:01:31,759 –> 00:01:37,289
[laurence]: do that again hey good morning it’s
great to join you i’m delighted to introduce

45
00:01:37,630 –> 00:01:38,732
[laurence]: branslanicolich

46
00:01:38,197 –> 00:01:38,478
[ramsey_d_smith]: oh

47
00:01:38,852 –> 00:01:43,880
[laurence]: who’s just joined us from chanics he
was ahead of research and he was therefore

48
00:01:43,940 –> 00:01:48,527
[laurence]: about almost a decade and the index
standard we’ve got a lot of index expertise

49
00:01:48,627 –> 00:01:51,150
[laurence]: and it’s great to kind of expand
our capabilities

50
00:01:50,542 –> 00:01:50,625
[ramsey_d_smith]: ah

51
00:01:51,250 –> 00:01:54,073
[laurence]: with brand slabs in depth insurance knowledge

52
00:01:56,547 –> 00:01:57,091
[ramsey_d_smith]: fantastic

53
00:01:56,846 –> 00:01:57,887
[paul_tyler]: welcome yeah

54
00:01:58,150 –> 00:01:58,936
[branislav_nikolic]: thank you extremely

55
00:01:58,708 –> 00:01:58,908
[paul_tyler]: you want

56
00:01:58,976 –> 00:01:59,661
[branislav_nikolic]: happy to be here

57
00:02:00,529 –> 00:02:02,011
[paul_tyler]: yeah yeah tell us

58
00:02:02,137 –> 00:02:02,947
[ramsey_d_smith]: yeah

59
00:02:02,611 –> 00:02:05,394
[paul_tyler]: tell us it’s a little bit about
your back story how did how did you

60
00:02:05,434 –> 00:02:07,055
[paul_tyler]: get into the annuity space

61
00:02:08,047 –> 00:02:08,917
[ramsey_d_smith]: oh

62
00:02:08,720 –> 00:02:14,345
[branislav_nikolic]: so my story with annuities was polly
haphazard so old way through school i thought

63
00:02:14,385 –> 00:02:18,049
[branislav_nikolic]: i would end up on a trading
desk somewhere be a proper quant and i

64
00:02:18,389 –> 00:02:23,657
[branislav_nikolic]: had enormous luck to meet motinmilevsky extreme
early in my career and started working for

65
00:02:24,138 –> 00:02:28,465
[branislav_nikolic]: for his start up later joined chanics
which is again an industry leader on data

66
00:02:28,525 –> 00:02:36,578
[branislav_nikolic]: analytics for annuities spent good almost ten
years there leading research and really helping antics

67
00:02:36,699 –> 00:02:42,849
[branislav_nikolic]: build their capabilities in all sorts of
annuities in terms of platforms for exchanges that’s

68
00:02:42,909 –> 00:02:49,059
[branislav_nikolic]: how i lawrence and j and i
really saw the two missions extremely complimentary and

69
00:02:49,540 –> 00:02:54,048
[branislav_nikolic]: i always saw the index as a
fuel to the annuity and i always was

70
00:02:54,088 –> 00:02:55,530
[branislav_nikolic]: saying that it’s important these

71
00:02:55,417 –> 00:02:55,437
[ramsey_d_smith]: m

72
00:02:55,590 –> 00:02:56,051
[branislav_nikolic]: two things

73
00:02:56,317 –> 00:02:57,907
[ramsey_d_smith]: oh

74
00:02:56,392 –> 00:03:01,042
[branislav_nikolic]: evaluated together so we started talking and
i’m extremely happy to have joined the team

75
00:03:01,183 –> 00:03:03,608
[branislav_nikolic]: and to be side by side with
lawrence and j

76
00:03:04,387 –> 00:03:05,587
[ramsey_d_smith]: yeah

77
00:03:04,446 –> 00:03:04,566
[paul_tyler]: ah

78
00:03:04,770 –> 00:03:05,012
[branislav_nikolic]: oh

79
00:03:05,608 –> 00:03:11,217
[paul_tyler]: lawrence so actually we saw each other
in person it was it was tremendous i

80
00:03:11,885 –> 00:03:12,210
[laurence]: indeed

81
00:03:11,978 –> 00:03:16,846
[paul_tyler]: i made the very last minute decision
to tend naa this year and a f

82
00:03:16,987 –> 00:03:20,392
[paul_tyler]: a for those of you who were
wont to look at this up had their

83
00:03:20,432 –> 00:03:26,543
[paul_tyler]: conference in california showed up and lawrence
you were on a great platform talking about

84
00:03:27,104 –> 00:03:32,272
[paul_tyler]: kind of the landscape of product design
and industiesn maybe for our audience you could

85
00:03:32,312 –> 00:03:36,279
[paul_tyler]: just sort of give us talk to
us a little bit more about the problem

86
00:03:36,339 –> 00:03:40,529
[paul_tyler]: you’re solving and you know what’s taking
place in the market today

87
00:03:41,924 –> 00:03:46,531
[laurence]: sure thanks paul because you know a
lot is happening so let me just sort

88
00:03:46,572 –> 00:03:48,415
[laurence]: of give everyone little bit of background
about what we

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00:03:48,487 –> 00:03:48,729
[ramsey_d_smith]: oh

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[laurence]: do so at the end of standard
we all know there’s so much complexity in

91
00:03:52,802 –> 00:03:57,287
[laurence]: this market with induces and the pay
offs so what we do at the end

92
00:03:57,347 –> 00:04:04,714
[laurence]: next standard which were really trying to
simplify decode and mystify all this complexity and

93
00:04:04,754 –> 00:04:07,641
[laurence]: we do it in a couple of
ways we’ve got a lot of research

94
00:04:07,490 –> 00:04:07,573
[ramsey_d_smith]: he

95
00:04:07,821 –> 00:04:12,372
[laurence]: that we help people giving them insights
as to what products and industries to select

96
00:04:13,664 –> 00:04:19,880
[laurence]: we also actually rate and evaluate every
single index used in the insurance space we

97
00:04:19,980 –> 00:04:25,751
[laurence]: give it a platinum gold silver bronze
rating and then we actually have some forward

98
00:04:25,791 –> 00:04:29,617
[laurence]: looking forecast to help people think about
the future because we all know the future

99
00:04:29,657 –> 00:04:33,223
[laurence]: is going to be different so we
have some forecast and then we’ve actually on

100
00:04:33,263 –> 00:04:38,853
[laurence]: the of these forecasts we’ve actually launched
some model allications so allicating

101
00:04:38,471 –> 00:04:38,657
[ramsey_d_smith]: yeah

102
00:04:38,913 –> 00:04:43,420
[laurence]: to an annuity can be really tough
with sort of fifteen crediting lines so we’ve

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00:04:43,480 –> 00:04:45,343
[laurence]: actually built a tool to help people
with

104
00:04:45,607 –> 00:04:45,767
[ramsey_d_smith]: yeah

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00:04:45,746 –> 00:04:51,431
[laurence]: a tough selection now i just want
to give you some background about the index

106
00:04:51,611 –> 00:04:53,816
[laurence]: industry so one interesting

107
00:04:53,616 –> 00:04:53,917
[ramsey_d_smith]: yeah

108
00:04:53,936 –> 00:04:58,725
[laurence]: fact it’s actually almost a trillion dollar
industry no one knows about it so i

109
00:04:58,805 –> 00:05:00,268
[laurence]: call it like a niche market

110
00:04:59,892 –> 00:04:59,973
[branislav_nikolic]: ah

111
00:05:00,468 –> 00:05:01,370
[laurence]: that’s a trillion dollars

112
00:05:01,117 –> 00:05:01,807
[ramsey_d_smith]: yeah

113
00:05:02,371 –> 00:05:06,739
[laurence]: so you know we see in the
u s insurance space there’s probably is the

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00:05:06,859 –> 00:05:12,573
[laurence]: bulk of risk control industries probably about
half that but actually risk control industries are

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00:05:12,734 –> 00:05:13,878
[laurence]: used in germany

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00:05:14,137 –> 00:05:15,427
[ramsey_d_smith]: yeah

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[laurence]: and in switzerland

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[ramsey_d_smith]: oh

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[laurence]: actually used in the insurance

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[ramsey_d_smith]: ye

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[laurence]: space they use risk control industries in
mutual funds then another big portion is structure

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[laurence]: products we estimate there’s probably two hundred
and fifty billion in instructure products that actually

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[laurence]: are linked to these risk control industries
and then actually you have this of bank

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[laurence]: market where they’re doing direct transactions with
big institutions that’s probably another two hundred billions

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[laurence]: so in total we think it’s around
about a trillion dollar market

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[ramsey_d_smith]: so that’s incredible i mean one of
the things though that is

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[branislav_nikolic]: oh

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[ramsey_d_smith]: that has been interesting about the market
is it’s gotten it’s been characterized by a

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[ramsey_d_smith]: lot more choice and there’s a lot
of value in an adit a choice but

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[ramsey_d_smith]: with with those choices becomes many many
more complicated decisions

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[laurence]: yeah

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[ramsey_d_smith]: and you know so i guess a
question you know that that i have for

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[ramsey_d_smith]: you like so what sort of what
are your various target audiences i can see

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[ramsey_d_smith]: i can certainly see why retail retail

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[laurence]: m

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[ramsey_d_smith]: consumers would want to be able to
decode all the choices but i would imagine

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[ramsey_d_smith]: that institutions are almost similarly challenged so
what are your target audiences for your product

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[ramsey_d_smith]: lines yeah

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[laurence]: so we’re actually kind of targeting that
that whole gammit we want

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[ramsey_d_smith]: hm

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[laurence]: to help organizations with the selection and
due diligence of these industies want to help

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[laurence]: organizations who selling them that they can
use our reports to kind of position them

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[laurence]: and and in the end consumer i
mean the main reason i’m actually here and

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[laurence]: doing this is i want m and
ms smith who are buying these policies to

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[laurence]: do better right

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[ramsey_d_smith]: oh

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[laurence]: by building choosing

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[ramsey_d_smith]: oh

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[laurence]: better industries and building diverse portfolios and
let me just make one quick comment about

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[bruno_caron]: oh

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[laurence]: the industries because

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[tisa_rabun_marshall]: m

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[laurence]: you know i think we hear a
lot about the comp lexity but also on

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[laurence]: the sort of flip side is actually
it’s really wonderful because what we’re now

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[ramsey_d_smith]: m

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[laurence]: seeing is a lot of the users
are actually getting access to techniques that only

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[laurence]: used by hedge funds or big pension
funds i can give any example there’s a

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[laurence]: technique called mean verace optimization just a
fancy way of saying give me the best

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[laurence]: aplication to target a certain level of
risk that was kind of actually harry make

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[laurence]: its came up with that technique in
the late fifties he wanted no ball prize

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[laurence]: for up until a couple of years
ago you only had big pension funds and

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[laurence]: big hedge funds were using that ut
now amazingly that technique is an indusies and

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[laurence]: we can all access that so that’s
actually a really wonderful innovation that all of

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[laurence]: us can use that

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[branislav_nikolic]: oh

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[ramsey_d_smith]: yeah

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[laurence]: to do better

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[branislav_nikolic]: yeah m

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[bruno_caron]: that’s that’s wonderful and can you talk
you talk a little bit more about those

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[bruno_caron]: those actual metrics and in practice what
type of metrics it you used to rate

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[bruno_caron]: s

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[ramsey_d_smith]: oh

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[bruno_caron]: h i mean you list plenty in
terms of calculating and measuring those like like

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[bruno_caron]: capital risk metric efficiency metric return metric

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[ramsey_d_smith]: m

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[bruno_caron]: what are those metrics and what do
they mean

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[ramsey_d_smith]: m

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[bruno_caron]: for people who ultimately use them

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[laurence]: he great question bruno

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[bruno_caron]: yeah

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[laurence]: so we actually look at about thirty
five

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[bruno_caron]: yeah

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[laurence]: metrics and i’m going

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[branislav_nikolic]: ah

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[laurence]: to loosely break them down into

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[branislav_nikolic]: oh

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[laurence]: three groups so the first group is

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[bruno_caron]: yeah

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[laurence]: we really want to look at the
complex city of each

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[bruno_caron]: oh

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[laurence]: index how it’s designed and the availability
of the rules and who’s calculating that the

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[laurence]: key thing is is really that complexity
we’ll look at the dirt the diversification we’ll

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[laurence]: look and see if the rules are
available well look and see if there’s an

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[laurence]: independent index calculation

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[ramsey_d_smith]: oh

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[laurence]: agent and we like to see those
things and by the way what we prefer

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[laurence]: to see when we’re looking at an
index is simpler is better than an index

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[laurence]: with lots of no second category is
what you touched on

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[bruno_caron]: oh

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[laurence]: will look at a lot of

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[paul_tyler]: yeah

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[laurence]: metrics like such as returns and volatility
but there we want to kind of go

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[laurence]: under the hood and we look at
something called v which is v a r

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[laurence]: but it’s just simply a metric that
tells you how much you can possibly

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[ramsey_d_smith]: what does

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[laurence]: lose

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[ramsey_d_smith]: that spell

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[laurence]: so we

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[ramsey_d_smith]: out

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[laurence]: want

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[ramsey_d_smith]: to

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[laurence]: to look

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[ramsey_d_smith]: lawrence

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[laurence]: at that

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[ramsey_d_smith]: for those on our audience

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[laurence]: yeah

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[ramsey_d_smith]: who don’t

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[bruno_caron]: i

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[ramsey_d_smith]: know

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[bruno_caron]: i

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[ramsey_d_smith]: what that spells out

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[branislav_nikolic]: oh

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[laurence]: we’re

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[ramsey_d_smith]: to

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[laurence]: going to keep it

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[bruno_caron]: oh

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[laurence]: simple

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[ramsey_d_smith]: okay

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[laurence]: we just look under the hood and
we kind

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[ramsey_d_smith]: okay

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[laurence]: of figure out the max that you
could lose

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[ramsey_d_smith]: right

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[laurence]: we also look at you know the
number of months that the index has positive

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[laurence]: on negative returns look at another technical
measure that says have you got a propensity

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[laurence]: for positive returns

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[ramsey_d_smith]: m

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[laurence]: we also look at large big outliers
as well to see if you’ve got any

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[laurence]: positive or large negative outlines again that
tells us a lot and then the final

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[laurence]: categories we actually look forward and we
actually bring in some of our forecast to

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[laurence]: try and also have a forward looking
measure

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[paul_tyler]: yeah

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[laurence]: so we score each nex out of
a hundred then we market on a bell

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[laurence]: shaped curve when we allocate platinum gold
silver bronze and then we also have watch

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[laurence]: and neutral as our worst categories

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[paul_tyler]: so lawrence if if i’m an advisor
selling one

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[ramsey_d_smith]: oh

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[paul_tyler]: of our one of our own companies
products to tsa and i’ve got the materials

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[paul_tyler]: in front of my the table because
the virtual table i have a lot of

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[paul_tyler]: personal risk at stake here right i
could recommend

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[ramsey_d_smith]: m

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[paul_tyler]: induces that creator the next two years

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[laurence]: yeah

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[paul_tyler]: um i could uh come over the
recommendations that are all kind of bunched up

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[paul_tyler]: in one in a couple i may
think i’ve diversified the actual

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[ramsey_d_smith]: oh

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[paul_tyler]: industries when in fact i’ve put all
her retirement into sort of one sector m

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[paul_tyler]: sometimes advisers simply default of saying look
tis just pick three or four of these

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[paul_tyler]: and let’s divide by that number and
put them in these industries oh and by

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[paul_tyler]: the way we now have best interest
standards now coming down the pike what

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[laurence]: yeah

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[paul_tyler]: does that process look like do i
spend more time with her lawrence do i

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[paul_tyler]: have better tools do i go in
with sort of pre set recommendations what does

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[paul_tyler]: that this looks like two or three
years from now

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[laurence]: you know that’s great let me answer
that in two parts and i would love

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[laurence]: to bring in brandon slave to answer

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[ramsey_d_smith]: m

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[laurence]: the second part here so you know
let me give you a couple of thoughts

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[laurence]: you know firstly i think the future
is going to be different from the past

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[laurence]: so always looking at these past historical
returns is probably not going to be optimal

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[laurence]: you know and let me give you
some some simple examples right firstly the last

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[laurence]: decade we had low inflation

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[ramsey_d_smith]: ye okay

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[laurence]: low interest rates no

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[ramsey_d_smith]: last

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[laurence]: tech

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[ramsey_d_smith]: week

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[laurence]: tail wins and globalization and it was
a great environment for large cap tech going

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[laurence]: forward i think everyone recognizes right we
see higher inflation we see higher rates we

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[laurence]: see dglobalization you know and the tech
is being regulated

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[branislav_nikolic]: oh

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[laurence]: beg pardon a recent big merger just
got blocked between microsopt and activision visit so

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[laurence]: that you know the world is going
to be different going forward so you know

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[laurence]: i think there are a lot of
people who are just alicating you know hundred

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[laurence]: percent to a bench mark index so
we want to encourage people to look forward

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[laurence]: so the way we do that at
the end ex standard we actually take the

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[laurence]: wisdom of wall street we actually go
and collect about thirty five asset managers and

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[laurence]: banks their ten year forward looking returns
and then what we do is we actually

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[laurence]: apply these these actual

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[branislav_nikolic]: m

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[laurence]: expected returns to each index and then
we’re able to produce

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[branislav_nikolic]: m

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[laurence]: a forward looking forecast for each index

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[branislav_nikolic]: oh

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[laurence]: so hand of the brands who is
going to talk about one of our latest

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[laurence]: innovations on what we’ve been doing around
kind of making that more useful for an

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[laurence]: f i a over over to you
brandslep

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[branislav_nikolic]: thank you laurence so so again the
key for me and one thing that i’m

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[branislav_nikolic]: extremely passionate about is how does this
to your point all get sold or how

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[branislav_nikolic]: is this presented over virtual or actual
kitchen table right because again who are the

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[branislav_nikolic]: buyers of annuities or pre retires or
early retires and you have two motives when

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[branislav_nikolic]: one is guaranteed income for life one
is the accumulation with a protected protected downside

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[branislav_nikolic]: either or you are looking for your
index more often than not to provide basis

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[branislav_nikolic]: of growth if you’re looking on the
accumulation side obvious if you’re looking on the

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[branislav_nikolic]: income side you have more and more
products coming in with the ability to harvest

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[branislav_nikolic]: some of that index growth and trans
laded into um cost of living adjustment on

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[branislav_nikolic]: your income going forward one way or
the other you have to understand the annuity

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[branislav_nikolic]: which i will which i like to
think of as like as an engine or

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[branislav_nikolic]: a car and you have to think
of an index which i like to think

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[branislav_nikolic]: of as a fuel you can have
like perfect grade fuel you put in a

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[branislav_nikolic]: bad engine doesn’t go you have a
perfect car put put a basic gasoline in

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00:14:16,989 –> 00:14:21,526
[branislav_nikolic]: it sant go either like it starts
to cling you need the best combination and

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[branislav_nikolic]: this is where i believe that looking
into forecasts first of all coming from a

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[branislav_nikolic]: lawrence was mentioning with of all street
transformed into how these indessinduscis will do going

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[branislav_nikolic]: forward putting down through the annuities to
achieve something that we call it in stand

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00:14:38,834 –> 00:14:43,883
[branislav_nikolic]: the net forecast yield basically trying to
what would the annuity with a given crediting

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00:14:43,963 –> 00:14:49,011
[branislav_nikolic]: strategy on a given index provide over
over the next ten years and then on

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00:14:49,092 –> 00:14:54,080
[branislav_nikolic]: top of that now look into all
of these options and see which two three

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[branislav_nikolic]: five options will give you the highest
expected return going forward so again thinking about

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00:15:00,410 –> 00:15:05,178
[branislav_nikolic]: the design of the engine whether it’s
a strategy whether it’s a parameters are you

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00:15:05,238 –> 00:15:09,283
[branislav_nikolic]: paying a fee it or not what
type of index are you putting to it

321
00:15:09,363 –> 00:15:12,926
[branislav_nikolic]: if it’s a bench mark you’re usually
getting a fraction of a return if it’s

322
00:15:12,966 –> 00:15:18,276
[branislav_nikolic]: a volatility control you get a multiple
now let’s say that you get ten per

323
00:15:18,356 –> 00:15:22,591
[branislav_nikolic]: cent return on a bench marine dex
and you get half of it okay ten

324
00:15:22,651 –> 00:15:26,056
[branislav_nikolic]: percent are we going to get ten
per cent next year the year after i

325
00:15:26,097 –> 00:15:30,324
[branislav_nikolic]: don’t know but if you get well
till controlled index and you get two three

326
00:15:30,464 –> 00:15:36,613
[branislav_nikolic]: times of it even if it returns
two three percent you’re already doing doing much

327
00:15:36,653 –> 00:15:40,778
[branislav_nikolic]: better all of this has to be
taken taken into context the other one is

328
00:15:40,838 –> 00:15:48,860
[branislav_nikolic]: that probably the truth lies somewhere in
between looking into the history and seeing high

329
00:15:48,940 –> 00:15:54,562
[branislav_nikolic]: returns are you going to see these
going forward no you’re going to see exactly

330
00:15:54,602 –> 00:15:59,430
[branislav_nikolic]: what’s happening in the forecast probably not
but i think these two are perfect basis

331
00:15:59,470 –> 00:16:03,396
[branislav_nikolic]: for conversation one for legal legal reasons
you got to do it because that’s how

332
00:16:03,437 –> 00:16:08,821
[branislav_nikolic]: you sell the annuity and the other
one is to basically show that up done

333
00:16:08,881 –> 00:16:13,149
[branislav_nikolic]: some thinking outside of the box in
terms of due diligence and what could happen

334
00:16:13,269 –> 00:16:17,536
[branislav_nikolic]: and again use this as a cheat
cheat to show how well you understand the

335
00:16:17,596 –> 00:16:20,672
[branislav_nikolic]: whole car plus the fee on a
race track

336
00:16:24,297 –> 00:16:25,660
[ramsey_d_smith]: so a quick question here

337
00:16:25,596 –> 00:16:26,766
[tisa_rabun_marshall]: oh

338
00:16:26,141 –> 00:16:29,586
[ramsey_d_smith]: so this this makes a lot of
sense right for a variety of

339
00:16:29,580 –> 00:16:30,720
[branislav_nikolic]: yeah

340
00:16:29,646 –> 00:16:36,718
[ramsey_d_smith]: reasons and the question is has anybody
done this before has there been has there

341
00:16:36,778 –> 00:16:41,615
[ramsey_d_smith]: been primarily a focus on history and
in particular back testing

342
00:16:42,934 –> 00:16:45,197
[laurence]: yeah i think there’s been such

343
00:16:45,180 –> 00:16:46,440
[branislav_nikolic]: oh

344
00:16:45,278 –> 00:16:50,346
[laurence]: a focus in on the industry and
back testing and listen it has a place

345
00:16:50,506 –> 00:16:50,647
[laurence]: but

346
00:16:50,529 –> 00:16:50,692
[ramsey_d_smith]: yeah

347
00:16:51,147 –> 00:16:52,369
[laurence]: what we like to say is

348
00:16:52,448 –> 00:16:52,468
[ramsey_d_smith]: i

349
00:16:53,071 –> 00:16:57,324
[laurence]: take the back test and take the
all cast and sort of think about the

350
00:16:57,538 –> 00:16:57,619
[ramsey_d_smith]: no

351
00:16:57,625 –> 00:17:01,912
[laurence]: using it together let me give you
like a common sense example that we we’ve

352
00:17:01,952 –> 00:17:07,662
[laurence]: been thinking about so right now some
of the large cap tech industries have the

353
00:17:07,722 –> 00:17:13,595
[laurence]: last ten years historical returns of sixteen
per cent so let’s kind of apply common

354
00:17:13,675 –> 00:17:15,116
[laurence]: logic and let’s take apple

355
00:17:14,910 –> 00:17:15,578
[branislav_nikolic]: yeah

356
00:17:15,576 –> 00:17:20,601
[laurence]: apples the largest constituent of a lot
of pig teck industries so apple the market

357
00:17:20,661 –> 00:17:25,256
[laurence]: cap right now is about two point
four trillion so if i take that two

358
00:17:25,316 –> 00:17:29,624
[laurence]: point four trillion and i’m going to
compound it at sixteen percent like many

359
00:17:29,647 –> 00:17:29,667
[ramsey_d_smith]: m

360
00:17:30,025 –> 00:17:34,858
[laurence]: is shown in the the software illustrations
actually that means in ten years time apple

361
00:17:34,898 –> 00:17:40,558
[laurence]: is going to have to have a
market cap of ten trillion dollars now maybe

362
00:17:40,598 –> 00:17:40,919
[laurence]: that’s going

363
00:17:40,957 –> 00:17:41,617
[ramsey_d_smith]: yeah

364
00:17:40,959 –> 00:17:41,940
[laurence]: to happen but

365
00:17:41,850 –> 00:17:42,630
[branislav_nikolic]: yeah

366
00:17:42,000 –> 00:17:42,762
[laurence]: like let me give you some

367
00:17:42,660 –> 00:17:42,942
[branislav_nikolic]: yeah

368
00:17:42,802 –> 00:17:49,112
[laurence]: context the german g p is three
point eight trillion so it might happen right

369
00:17:49,413 –> 00:17:50,214
[laurence]: but that’s we

370
00:17:50,280 –> 00:17:50,300
[branislav_nikolic]: m

371
00:17:50,414 –> 00:17:54,842
[laurence]: want to encourage people to be diverse
because you know i was just saying i

372
00:17:54,882 –> 00:17:58,187
[laurence]: think it’s going to be a decade
of discomfort right we’ve seen the end of

373
00:17:58,248 –> 00:18:02,238
[laurence]: globalization is going to be difficult so
i think you want to be diverse right

374
00:18:03,114 –> 00:18:07,821
[laurence]: look at emerging markets there their historic
or returns for the last ten years kind

375
00:18:07,861 –> 00:18:11,326
[laurence]: of like about zero maybe they’re going
to do better right you want to put

376
00:18:11,367 –> 00:18:11,387
[laurence]: a

377
00:18:11,409 –> 00:18:11,430
[branislav_nikolic]: m

378
00:18:11,427 –> 00:18:15,433
[laurence]: little bit of money in there right
now everyone’s so bearish about europe but maybe

379
00:18:15,473 –> 00:18:19,200
[laurence]: you want to sprinkle a little bit
in there too so we just think being

380
00:18:19,260 –> 00:18:26,051
[laurence]: diversified is really important and with our
innovation of helping people to choose across complicated

381
00:18:26,452 –> 00:18:31,360
[laurence]: crediting strategies that brands have just outlined
we take that complicated choice between they say

382
00:18:31,761 –> 00:18:35,669
[laurence]: choosing fifty percent of a bench mark
index or two hundred per cent in a

383
00:18:35,730 –> 00:18:40,530
[laurence]: risk control index just make that into
an apples to apples conversation where we can

384
00:18:40,581 –> 00:18:40,682
[branislav_nikolic]: oh

385
00:18:40,630 –> 00:18:43,718
[laurence]: say maybe you’re gonna get five here
and maybe you goin to get eight here

386
00:18:44,199 –> 00:18:45,782
[laurence]: to build a diversified portfolio

387
00:18:46,560 –> 00:18:50,887
[branislav_nikolic]: one thing lawrence that i would like
to add again lawrence being an expert to

388
00:18:50,927 –> 00:18:54,433
[branislav_nikolic]: what i call fuel and industries again
like its great great insight but again looking

389
00:18:54,493 –> 00:18:59,241
[branislav_nikolic]: into just these strategies that you get
in these annuities strategies they are built to

390
00:18:59,681 –> 00:19:04,469
[branislav_nikolic]: harvest the sharp growth you have strategies
that give you cap return so basically you’re

391
00:19:04,489 –> 00:19:08,316
[branislav_nikolic]: looking for a pause that have some
they’re looking for just positive return and then

392
00:19:08,356 –> 00:19:13,765
[branislav_nikolic]: you’re good you have those they are
looking for consistently positive return without any volatility

393
00:19:13,865 –> 00:19:14,085
[branislav_nikolic]: in them

394
00:19:14,947 –> 00:19:15,667
[ramsey_d_smith]: oh

395
00:19:15,328 –> 00:19:19,094
[branislav_nikolic]: how to know again you can have
your view of the market have your outlook

396
00:19:19,695 –> 00:19:23,782
[branislav_nikolic]: but how exactly you know where to
put on so if your money you don’t

397
00:19:23,822 –> 00:19:27,087
[branislav_nikolic]: have to you don’t have to know
that’s why it’s good to diversify that’s why

398
00:19:27,167 –> 00:19:33,518
[branislav_nikolic]: it’s good to diversify strategies crsindusties and
basically get all of these tools available to

399
00:19:33,578 –> 00:19:37,056
[branislav_nikolic]: you working for the for the end
user which is the most important piece

400
00:19:38,589 –> 00:19:38,710
[paul_tyler]: this

401
00:19:38,745 –> 00:19:38,825
[ramsey_d_smith]: and

402
00:19:38,771 –> 00:19:38,831
[paul_tyler]: is

403
00:19:38,886 –> 00:19:38,906
[ramsey_d_smith]: a

404
00:19:38,891 –> 00:19:38,912
[paul_tyler]: a

405
00:19:38,946 –> 00:19:39,067
[ramsey_d_smith]: key

406
00:19:38,972 –> 00:19:39,455
[paul_tyler]: complicated

407
00:19:39,168 –> 00:19:39,732
[ramsey_d_smith]: element of this

408
00:19:39,959 –> 00:19:40,362
[paul_tyler]: problem

409
00:19:42,447 –> 00:19:46,313
[ramsey_d_smith]: it’s gonna say a key element of
this is that um figuring

410
00:19:46,050 –> 00:19:46,736
[branislav_nikolic]: oh

411
00:19:46,433 –> 00:19:50,480
[ramsey_d_smith]: out how diversified you are not a
simple problem right so it’s not just

412
00:19:50,580 –> 00:19:50,863
[branislav_nikolic]: yeah

413
00:19:51,241 –> 00:19:52,944
[ramsey_d_smith]: um you know joe the advisor

414
00:19:52,740 –> 00:19:53,610
[branislav_nikolic]: yeah

415
00:19:53,144 –> 00:19:57,291
[ramsey_d_smith]: saying i’d like i’d like so i’d
like some europe i’d like like some us

416
00:19:57,331 –> 00:20:02,340
[ramsey_d_smith]: exposure et cetera because there are there
are correlations across those various assets as well

417
00:20:02,440 –> 00:20:04,343
[ramsey_d_smith]: so it’s i think

418
00:20:04,294 –> 00:20:04,520
[laurence]: oh

419
00:20:04,383 –> 00:20:09,091
[ramsey_d_smith]: that folks in the audience that would
they’re using a platform like this it’s important

420
00:20:09,131 –> 00:20:14,199
[ramsey_d_smith]: to understand that that it’s you can’t
really do it properly unless you have a

421
00:20:14,240 –> 00:20:21,027
[ramsey_d_smith]: pretty sophisticated engine under the hood to
be able to capture not just the obvious

422
00:20:21,087 –> 00:20:25,654
[ramsey_d_smith]: sources of diversification but also the less
obvious places where you may be is not

423
00:20:25,694 –> 00:20:26,696
[ramsey_d_smith]: as diversified as you think

424
00:20:27,959 –> 00:20:28,100
[paul_tyler]: yeah

425
00:20:28,795 –> 00:20:29,596
[laurence]: that’s a great point

426
00:20:29,400 –> 00:20:29,542
[branislav_nikolic]: ye

427
00:20:29,817 –> 00:20:33,743
[laurence]: and you know we do work with
chanics to get some of the data and

428
00:20:33,843 –> 00:20:39,493
[laurence]: brands joined us from them and actually
on our staff we’ve got mostly quits you

429
00:20:39,533 –> 00:20:43,079
[laurence]: know we have j watson who’s one
of our other partners he’s got a quant

430
00:20:43,199 –> 00:20:47,847
[laurence]: background we’ve got trent mckenna who also
has masters in finance j has a ph

431
00:20:47,887 –> 00:20:47,907
[laurence]: d

432
00:20:48,067 –> 00:20:48,087
[ramsey_d_smith]: m

433
00:20:48,107 –> 00:20:51,232
[laurence]: and brand slave has masters and working
on his ph d so

434
00:20:51,420 –> 00:20:51,643
[branislav_nikolic]: yeah

435
00:20:51,994 –> 00:20:53,236
[laurence]: i’ve only got an m b a
so i’m

436
00:20:53,160 –> 00:20:53,402
[branislav_nikolic]: yeah

437
00:20:53,296 –> 00:20:53,416
[laurence]: like

438
00:20:53,317 –> 00:20:53,521
[ramsey_d_smith]: yeah

439
00:20:53,496 –> 00:20:54,999
[laurence]: i feel you know these guys are

440
00:20:55,470 –> 00:20:56,790
[branislav_nikolic]: yeah

441
00:20:55,860 –> 00:21:00,187
[laurence]: the smart guys that we have here
and yeahit’it’s very complicated and we spend a

442
00:21:00,368 –> 00:21:00,528
[laurence]: lot

443
00:21:00,476 –> 00:21:01,166
[paul_tyler]: oh

444
00:21:00,568 –> 00:21:04,074
[laurence]: of time modeling that out but the
key thing is we want to make it’s

445
00:21:04,234 –> 00:21:06,095
[laurence]: simple for people and present an

446
00:21:06,057 –> 00:21:06,077
[branislav_nikolic]: m

447
00:21:06,276 –> 00:21:09,659
[laurence]: apples to apples comparison we want to
help people and boil it down just what

448
00:21:09,699 –> 00:21:13,542
[laurence]: do you need to know here’s the
apples to apples comparison and here is a

449
00:21:13,582 –> 00:21:14,303
[laurence]: way to allocate

450
00:21:14,786 –> 00:21:15,071
[paul_tyler]: yeah

451
00:21:15,150 –> 00:21:15,170
[branislav_nikolic]: a

452
00:21:15,164 –> 00:21:16,491
[laurence]: this industry is too complicated

453
00:21:17,110 –> 00:21:17,252
[paul_tyler]: look

454
00:21:17,432 –> 00:21:21,599
[branislav_nikolic]: lawrence one thing that you touched on
and i think it’s important in ramsey asked

455
00:21:21,639 –> 00:21:24,944
[branislav_nikolic]: this like has anyone done any of
this before and i think that we are

456
00:21:25,004 –> 00:21:29,712
[branislav_nikolic]: trying basically to raise the tide i
think that this industry requires all the parties

457
00:21:29,772 –> 00:21:34,921
[branislav_nikolic]: to collaborate and i think this is
where we get again great data and some

458
00:21:35,021 –> 00:21:37,645
[branislav_nikolic]: simple calculations for mechanics we have our
our index

459
00:21:38,617 –> 00:21:38,878
[ramsey_d_smith]: yeah

460
00:21:38,747 –> 00:21:40,910
[branislav_nikolic]: index forecast we have our

461
00:21:40,826 –> 00:21:40,987
[ramsey_d_smith]: yeah

462
00:21:41,010 –> 00:21:42,031
[branislav_nikolic]: model locations

463
00:21:42,343 –> 00:21:42,506
[ramsey_d_smith]: yes

464
00:21:42,431 –> 00:21:45,054
[branislav_nikolic]: we are willing to work with others
because at the end of the day i

465
00:21:45,114 –> 00:21:49,678
[branislav_nikolic]: think this is a tide and i
think that shift has to happen it’s important

466
00:21:49,738 –> 00:21:55,141
[branislav_nikolic]: for it to happen again for again
for the end user it’s the most important

467
00:21:55,181 –> 00:22:01,606
[branislav_nikolic]: that this ship happens and legal point
of view will catch up the illustrations their

468
00:22:01,686 –> 00:22:06,514
[branislav_nikolic]: legal requirements the important part of it
but they don’t tell a full story and

469
00:22:06,594 –> 00:22:11,322
[branislav_nikolic]: we are trying to augment that story
that makes it more palatable and easier to

470
00:22:11,362 –> 00:22:16,751
[branislav_nikolic]: have as a conversation today but two
years from now if things don’t turn out

471
00:22:17,413 –> 00:22:20,397
[branislav_nikolic]: like what was shown in illustration that’s
the most important bit

472
00:22:20,887 –> 00:22:21,109
[ramsey_d_smith]: oh

473
00:22:21,256 –> 00:22:25,924
[paul_tyler]: yea let me talk a little bit
more about what diversity actually means

474
00:22:25,777 –> 00:22:26,038
[ramsey_d_smith]: yah

475
00:22:26,805 –> 00:22:27,266
[paul_tyler]: i like the

476
00:22:27,186 –> 00:22:27,307
[ramsey_d_smith]: yah

477
00:22:27,306 –> 00:22:32,795
[paul_tyler]: fact lawrence you say we encourage people
to look at back tested returns against four

478
00:22:32,956 –> 00:22:36,401
[paul_tyler]: acid returns there’s also a time factor
right because

479
00:22:37,276 –> 00:22:37,297
[ramsey_d_smith]: m

480
00:22:37,804 –> 00:22:43,874
[paul_tyler]: if you think about possible outcomes you
may have one fund that appears to have

481
00:22:44,490 –> 00:22:44,993
[branislav_nikolic]: oh

482
00:22:44,495 –> 00:22:50,605
[paul_tyler]: highest likelihood or industry of great returns
but there are also some outliers right through

483
00:22:50,665 –> 00:22:51,607
[paul_tyler]: some cases where

484
00:22:51,541 –> 00:22:51,994
[laurence]: hm

485
00:22:52,829 –> 00:22:57,977
[paul_tyler]: wow tsa could get zero she might
get twenty and return she might get a

486
00:22:58,078 –> 00:22:59,700
[paul_tyler]: zero now if she’s

487
00:22:59,677 –> 00:22:59,800
[laurence]: yeah

488
00:22:59,760 –> 00:23:02,785
[paul_tyler]: about to retire two years from now
and start to pull money

489
00:23:02,786 –> 00:23:02,806
[laurence]: a

490
00:23:02,946 –> 00:23:06,331
[paul_tyler]: out how do i factor in the
possibility

491
00:23:05,949 –> 00:23:05,990
[laurence]: a

492
00:23:06,492 –> 00:23:08,575
[paul_tyler]: that there might be a zero here

493
00:23:09,444 –> 00:23:13,871
[laurence]: yeah right there’s so so much in
what you’ve asked me that

494
00:23:13,980 –> 00:23:15,030
[branislav_nikolic]: yeah

495
00:23:14,292 –> 00:23:15,333
[laurence]: d love to talk about so

496
00:23:15,300 –> 00:23:15,563
[branislav_nikolic]: oh

497
00:23:16,155 –> 00:23:22,004
[laurence]: you know great thought so the first
thing is i think everyone really expect bench

498
00:23:22,084 –> 00:23:27,089
[laurence]: mark industries to give positive returns right
the last ten years accepted this year we’ve

499
00:23:27,129 –> 00:23:30,692
[laurence]: just seen positive return so people have
been treated and we all have this recency

500
00:23:30,812 –> 00:23:35,409
[laurence]: bias now this year we’re probably going
to see a negative on many of the

501
00:23:35,449 –> 00:23:40,136
[laurence]: major bench marks and next year if
you look at some of the one year

502
00:23:40,237 –> 00:23:43,462
[laurence]: forecasts that some of the investment banks
put out a couple of investment banks are

503
00:23:43,522 –> 00:23:44,644
[laurence]: calling for negative

504
00:23:44,400 –> 00:23:44,420
[branislav_nikolic]: m

505
00:23:44,684 –> 00:23:48,550
[laurence]: returns so i think people are going
to be shocked so what you really want

506
00:23:48,611 –> 00:23:53,058
[laurence]: to do is find industries that ying
and yang when you know one is up

507
00:23:53,358 –> 00:23:56,408
[laurence]: the other one’s down and vice versa
right so that’s what you got to find

508
00:23:56,568 –> 00:23:57,892
[laurence]: industries that yang and yang

509
00:23:58,249 –> 00:23:58,469
[bruno_caron]: oh

510
00:23:59,054 –> 00:24:03,178
[laurence]: then you want to blend them in
now why is this important i got to

511
00:24:03,258 –> 00:24:06,801
[laurence]: tell you i think the most important
thing in finance that we all tend to

512
00:24:06,862 –> 00:24:13,190
[laurence]: forget is compounding compounding is the magic
in finance right just by eking out a

513
00:24:13,230 –> 00:24:18,239
[laurence]: little positive return each year the next
year you’re compounding on a higher number so

514
00:24:18,740 –> 00:24:23,267
[laurence]: if you can get your client even
two or three and versus zero that

515
00:24:23,284 –> 00:24:23,367
[bruno_caron]: ah

516
00:24:23,367 –> 00:24:25,110
[laurence]: next year you’re going to start at
one o three

517
00:24:25,020 –> 00:24:25,890
[branislav_nikolic]: yeah

518
00:24:25,711 –> 00:24:27,093
[laurence]: kind of compound that return so

519
00:24:27,480 –> 00:24:27,765
[branislav_nikolic]: yeah

520
00:24:27,594 –> 00:24:30,960
[laurence]: compounding is the magic that’s what you
want to do is just get your clients

521
00:24:31,140 –> 00:24:34,110
[laurence]: a little positive return and you can
build wealth like that

522
00:24:34,980 –> 00:24:37,484
[branislav_nikolic]: lawrence i would like to kind of
add to that a bit and i think

523
00:24:37,504 –> 00:24:40,068
[branislav_nikolic]: this is an important one so when
you look into bench mark industries in the

524
00:24:40,128 –> 00:24:44,355
[branislav_nikolic]: last thirty years let’s say you would
see that we had like periods there will

525
00:24:44,415 –> 00:24:47,701
[branislav_nikolic]: last like seven or ten years and
then we have a correction so there was

526
00:24:47,761 –> 00:24:51,908
[branislav_nikolic]: no period of twenty years that you
had like positive high positive return there was

527
00:24:52,028 –> 00:24:56,315
[branislav_nikolic]: always something happening in the middle that
would kind of take us back and then

528
00:24:56,335 –> 00:24:57,657
[branislav_nikolic]: you have like the star

529
00:24:57,709 –> 00:24:57,830
[bruno_caron]: ye

530
00:24:57,738 –> 00:24:59,882
[branislav_nikolic]: grow look at a history of those
industries

531
00:24:59,749 –> 00:25:00,014
[bruno_caron]: oh

532
00:25:00,222 –> 00:25:04,431
[branislav_nikolic]: you had periods in thirties forties fifties
even sixties

533
00:25:04,240 –> 00:25:04,341
[bruno_caron]: ah

534
00:25:04,512 –> 00:25:07,618
[branislav_nikolic]: that they had like a constant seven
percent return so if we are

535
00:25:08,134 –> 00:25:08,154
[laurence]: m

536
00:25:08,490 –> 00:25:10,914
[branislav_nikolic]: we can go back at a time
i think that

537
00:25:11,584 –> 00:25:11,888
[laurence]: oh

538
00:25:11,655 –> 00:25:15,281
[branislav_nikolic]: our conversation today will be obsolete if
you have a index returning seven percent year

539
00:25:15,421 –> 00:25:19,869
[branislav_nikolic]: over here here we are talking about
people thinking of averages but the sequence of

540
00:25:19,929 –> 00:25:23,712
[branislav_nikolic]: returns there’s a lot and then that’s
what i think will lawrence is saying i

541
00:25:23,752 –> 00:25:29,057
[branislav_nikolic]: would try to relate to the annuity
folks a little bit different is basically saying

542
00:25:29,097 –> 00:25:33,346
[branislav_nikolic]: that if you have a seven or
ten year annuity are you better off getting

543
00:25:34,670 –> 00:25:36,954
[branislav_nikolic]: solid returns three five

544
00:25:36,919 –> 00:25:36,939
[bruno_caron]: m

545
00:25:37,014 –> 00:25:41,441
[branislav_nikolic]: or seven out of out of ten
years or you should get positive return in

546
00:25:41,521 –> 00:25:45,107
[branislav_nikolic]: all ten of them and again depending
how these are using the plan if you’re

547
00:25:45,187 –> 00:25:50,236
[branislav_nikolic]: living of interest or or that a
fixed fixed credit you want it every year

548
00:25:50,416 –> 00:25:53,221
[branislav_nikolic]: and you want to be able to
plan so i guess it really matters how

549
00:25:53,301 –> 00:25:58,249
[branislav_nikolic]: you’re putting this into into into the
annuity as well another thing that became apparent

550
00:25:58,005 –> 00:25:58,026
[bruno_caron]: a

551
00:25:58,349 –> 00:25:59,912
[branislav_nikolic]: as ere doing the research for the
model

552
00:25:59,749 –> 00:26:00,010
[bruno_caron]: oh

553
00:25:59,972 –> 00:26:04,820
[branislav_nikolic]: of location was that there are some
strategies when you look on a forecast a

554
00:26:04,900 –> 00:26:08,266
[branislav_nikolic]: basis they don’t even bee to fix
rate again fixed rate a year ago we

555
00:26:08,286 –> 00:26:12,132
[branislav_nikolic]: wouldn’t be even talking about it but
today it is like three or four five

556
00:26:12,212 –> 00:26:12,693
[branislav_nikolic]: percent

557
00:26:13,031 –> 00:26:13,444
[laurence]: hm

558
00:26:13,294 –> 00:26:14,136
[branislav_nikolic]: and you have a strategy

559
00:26:13,789 –> 00:26:14,072
[bruno_caron]: yah

560
00:26:14,216 –> 00:26:15,197
[branislav_nikolic]: they have a forecast that

561
00:26:15,288 –> 00:26:15,349
[bruno_caron]: ah

562
00:26:15,297 –> 00:26:20,807
[branislav_nikolic]: any yield or return less than that
now that begs the question why at all

563
00:26:20,887 –> 00:26:26,674
[branislav_nikolic]: participate why don’t ye some of the
security of the high fixed rates going forward

564
00:26:27,094 –> 00:26:31,579
[branislav_nikolic]: and combine that with some with some
other industries again what five per cent will

565
00:26:32,360 –> 00:26:35,605
[branislav_nikolic]: keep you up with inflation of seven
i don’t think so but i don’t think

566
00:26:35,665 –> 00:26:39,431
[branislav_nikolic]: inflation of seven is going to be
year after year so a lot of a

567
00:26:39,491 –> 00:26:43,618
[branislav_nikolic]: lot of things to unpack and it’s
why i think that locating across everything that’s

568
00:26:43,658 –> 00:26:54,384
[branislav_nikolic]: available within annuity looking into this is
the recification strategy versification banking on historically high

569
00:26:54,765 –> 00:26:58,658
[branislav_nikolic]: rates i think there’s a lot a
lot to consider

570
00:26:59,714 –> 00:27:03,200
[laurence]: and actually barn said there’s also another
complexity you sort of people have the choice

571
00:27:03,260 –> 00:27:06,546
[laurence]: sort i choose a one year point
to point or two year or three year

572
00:27:06,766 –> 00:27:10,933
[laurence]: up to a six year right and
that’s another complexity that we look at and

573
00:27:10,993 –> 00:27:13,821
[laurence]: try figure that out so yeah there’s
a lot going on in these in these

574
00:27:13,881 –> 00:27:14,142
[laurence]: products

575
00:27:16,919 –> 00:27:17,400
[bruno_caron]: a lot’s going

576
00:27:17,377 –> 00:27:17,618
[ramsey_d_smith]: oh

577
00:27:17,480 –> 00:27:21,587
[bruno_caron]: on to say the least and i
think there’s a lot of material in what

578
00:27:22,489 –> 00:27:24,292
[bruno_caron]: to unpack and what you just said

579
00:27:25,050 –> 00:27:25,920
[branislav_nikolic]: yeah

580
00:27:25,113 –> 00:27:34,108
[bruno_caron]: in terms of decumulation the sequence of
return uh and all that diversification um if

581
00:27:34,268 –> 00:27:39,657
[bruno_caron]: we put all the pieces together you
you mentioned that

582
00:27:39,547 –> 00:27:39,807
[ramsey_d_smith]: oh

583
00:27:39,797 –> 00:27:48,852
[bruno_caron]: yeah you’re launching this the model application
for for f i as um first of

584
00:27:48,893 –> 00:27:53,200
[bruno_caron]: all can you tell us a little
bit of you know some of the uh

585
00:27:53,661 –> 00:28:00,452
[bruno_caron]: the time line behind that and what
does that mean ultimately for for the consumer

586
00:28:00,592 –> 00:28:04,681
[bruno_caron]: and how are they going to be
able to use that that’s past to

587
00:28:06,314 –> 00:28:10,361
[laurence]: thanks bruno so we’ve we’ve been working
on this for the last year it’s taken

588
00:28:10,441 –> 00:28:16,291
[laurence]: us some time to model out more
than three thousand crediting strategies and then figure

589
00:28:16,371 –> 00:28:17,613
[laurence]: out an application so

590
00:28:17,580 –> 00:28:17,820
[branislav_nikolic]: yeah

591
00:28:17,794 –> 00:28:19,837
[laurence]: you’re going to be launching in january

592
00:28:20,169 –> 00:28:20,349
[branislav_nikolic]: yeah

593
00:28:20,578 –> 00:28:24,565
[laurence]: um you know we’re starting to tell
people and in fact we’re grateful to be

594
00:28:24,645 –> 00:28:27,910
[laurence]: here on on the on the podcast
right now and that’s part of our mission

595
00:28:27,990 –> 00:28:32,658
[laurence]: to tell people and so through the
course of december we’ll be letting a lot

596
00:28:32,698 –> 00:28:37,727
[laurence]: of our partners insurance carriers know and
then mid mid to end of jane we’ll

597
00:28:37,767 –> 00:28:41,172
[laurence]: be launching formally going to market and
telling everyone about it

598
00:28:41,311 –> 00:28:41,351
[branislav_nikolic]: m

599
00:28:41,633 –> 00:28:42,454
[laurence]: make and available

600
00:28:42,579 –> 00:28:42,600
[branislav_nikolic]: m

601
00:28:42,955 –> 00:28:47,300
[laurence]: we’ve already got one or two partners
who’ve signed on so we’re excited because it

602
00:28:47,340 –> 00:28:49,503
[laurence]: helps our mission we want to see
people do better

603
00:28:52,717 –> 00:28:53,217
[ramsey_d_smith]: so i was

604
00:28:53,160 –> 00:28:53,381
[branislav_nikolic]: yeah

605
00:28:53,638 –> 00:29:03,211
[ramsey_d_smith]: i was recently in a conversation with
listen fairly sizable financial institution in you know

606
00:29:03,271 –> 00:29:09,019
[ramsey_d_smith]: in the advisory space i’ll say and
they were trying to figure out different ways

607
00:29:09,139 –> 00:29:15,510
[ramsey_d_smith]: to to incorporate more annuities into their
their platform and one of the challenges was

608
00:29:15,570 –> 00:29:21,240
[ramsey_d_smith]: that increasingly the advisors were being asked
less and less to make investment decisions and

609
00:29:21,260 –> 00:29:25,647
[ramsey_d_smith]: they were more focused on relationship management
and so the implication of that is that

610
00:29:25,687 –> 00:29:25,787
[ramsey_d_smith]: the

611
00:29:25,944 –> 00:29:26,089
[laurence]: yeah

612
00:29:26,308 –> 00:29:32,703
[ramsey_d_smith]: that the investment strategies the acid application
strategies actually come from a central source right

613
00:29:33,085 –> 00:29:36,087
[ramsey_d_smith]: and the centralized sources need to use

614
00:29:36,157 –> 00:29:36,342
[laurence]: yeah

615
00:29:36,568 –> 00:29:41,617
[ramsey_d_smith]: rely on models that use a lot
of data and so you think about use

616
00:29:41,717 –> 00:29:47,587
[ramsey_d_smith]: cases what you’re building here lawrence and
brandaslav is that you’re bringing you’re bringing robt

617
00:29:47,748 –> 00:29:53,204
[ramsey_d_smith]: data you know where it didn’t exist
before so that it can potentially be used

618
00:29:53,384 –> 00:29:57,231
[ramsey_d_smith]: at a you know at a sort
of an entity level

619
00:29:57,137 –> 00:29:57,281
[laurence]: kay

620
00:29:57,331 –> 00:30:01,117
[ramsey_d_smith]: if you will i like to call
it factory settings right at an entity level

621
00:30:01,698 –> 00:30:07,067
[ramsey_d_smith]: nd level for larger financial institutions so
that at the end of the day know

622
00:30:07,347 –> 00:30:11,094
[ramsey_d_smith]: the advisor the advisor will be able
to rely on something that’s been fully veded

623
00:30:11,655 –> 00:30:15,581
[ramsey_d_smith]: at an institutional level but in order
for all that to work you know you

624
00:30:15,641 –> 00:30:20,109
[ramsey_d_smith]: have to have reliable data and to
your point earlier it didn’t really didn’t exist

625
00:30:20,469 –> 00:30:27,830
[ramsey_d_smith]: across the whole sort of spectrum of
offerings until guys launch this product so grat

626
00:30:30,174 –> 00:30:34,061
[laurence]: yeah thank you know i’ll make a
remark and then see if brandon has anything

627
00:30:34,121 –> 00:30:38,268
[laurence]: to add you know one of the
things we see having worked for a large

628
00:30:38,328 –> 00:30:42,876
[laurence]: financial institution in my in my prior
life one of the key things is everyone

629
00:30:42,956 –> 00:30:44,920
[laurence]: wants some kind of forecast

630
00:30:45,007 –> 00:30:45,108
[paul_tyler]: ah

631
00:30:45,301 –> 00:30:50,912
[laurence]: expected returns expected volatility what’s the correlation
they need those to plug into their model

632
00:30:52,064 –> 00:30:55,369
[laurence]: and in the annuity space there’s been
nothing now with what we do at the

633
00:30:55,429 –> 00:31:00,758
[laurence]: ende standard we’re able to provide expected
returns expected volatility and we know the correlation

634
00:31:00,838 –> 00:31:06,330
[laurence]: so we can help feel those those
dis sons that these institutions are having we

635
00:31:06,390 –> 00:31:12,104
[laurence]: can provide the imputs and i think
my final observation is this that i think

636
00:31:12,144 –> 00:31:17,473
[laurence]: if you were to use some of
the expect to expected returns we see i

637
00:31:17,553 –> 00:31:21,901
[laurence]: think the annuities would get a bigger
allocation than they have been because you know

638
00:31:21,981 –> 00:31:26,369
[laurence]: they have no downside risking case of
fear arilayouknow it’s kept and some

639
00:31:26,400 –> 00:31:26,640
[branislav_nikolic]: oh

640
00:31:26,409 –> 00:31:30,416
[laurence]: of the expected returns might be three
four five six very consistent so i think

641
00:31:30,437 –> 00:31:33,082
[laurence]: they get a larger allocation and that
would surprise

642
00:31:32,802 –> 00:31:32,967
[branislav_nikolic]: yeah

643
00:31:33,142 –> 00:31:34,744
[laurence]: a lot of people brand left

644
00:31:35,852 –> 00:31:40,440
[branislav_nikolic]: yeah i think there’s there’s like to
two levels of this conversation one is how

645
00:31:40,480 –> 00:31:44,667
[branislav_nikolic]: do you incorporate is in the broader
porfolia and when lawrence mentioned knowing what this

646
00:31:44,727 –> 00:31:50,597
[branislav_nikolic]: could return at what level of i
think would make advisors more comfortable again we

647
00:31:50,677 –> 00:31:55,565
[branislav_nikolic]: have a generation of advisors who grew
up in a in a bull market right

648
00:31:55,705 –> 00:32:02,256
[branislav_nikolic]: and would you ever consider an annuity
a safe investment downside when you never had

649
00:32:02,356 –> 00:32:06,183
[branislav_nikolic]: to now i think we are getting
to that realization that that that that’s goin

650
00:32:06,223 –> 00:32:11,652
[branislav_nikolic]: to start happening and again a lot
of great too is available out there a

651
00:32:11,712 –> 00:32:18,643
[branislav_nikolic]: lot of a lot of parties providing
phenomenal either end to end processes or optimal

652
00:32:18,784 –> 00:32:25,398
[branislav_nikolic]: product locations or simulators of how well
you do where you lock should locate your

653
00:32:25,498 –> 00:32:31,701
[branislav_nikolic]: assets the key is that no one
knew how to project ger quotes the annuity

654
00:32:31,781 –> 00:32:32,943
[branislav_nikolic]: going forward and i

655
00:32:33,013 –> 00:32:33,034
[laurence]: m

656
00:32:33,023 –> 00:32:36,487
[branislav_nikolic]: think this is this is important piece
that we that we bring bring bring to

657
00:32:36,547 –> 00:32:36,627
[branislav_nikolic]: the

658
00:32:36,561 –> 00:32:36,643
[paul_tyler]: ah

659
00:32:36,667 –> 00:32:44,366
[branislav_nikolic]: table again something that it’s showing not
only in the retail market but

660
00:32:44,376 –> 00:32:45,516
[tisa_rabun_marshall]: yeah

661
00:32:44,447 –> 00:32:49,495
[branislav_nikolic]: more importantly now spilling over into an
institutional market as well the people are adopting

662
00:32:49,555 –> 00:32:55,685
[branislav_nikolic]: these concepts d c pension plan level
that really kind of add the validity to

663
00:32:55,765 –> 00:33:00,493
[branislav_nikolic]: it and it kind of adds to
the eds conversation that if super conservative folks

664
00:33:00,694 –> 00:33:02,637
[branislav_nikolic]: and legal kind of legally aware

665
00:33:03,146 –> 00:33:03,896
[paul_tyler]: oh

666
00:33:04,361 –> 00:33:09,062
[branislav_nikolic]: are considering adding these into the mix
had to be a good thing so so

667
00:33:09,162 –> 00:33:12,846
[branislav_nikolic]: so at a lot a lot is
happening and we we we love to be

668
00:33:13,006 –> 00:33:15,049
[branislav_nikolic]: to be a part of part of
that conversation for sure

669
00:33:14,946 –> 00:33:15,127
[tisa_rabun_marshall]: oh

670
00:33:15,786 –> 00:33:20,534
[paul_tyler]: no i honestly think you could be
the next morning star right in the

671
00:33:20,670 –> 00:33:21,270
[branislav_nikolic]: oh

672
00:33:21,055 –> 00:33:23,919
[paul_tyler]: space i don’t know if that infringes
on cope

673
00:33:23,820 –> 00:33:24,265
[branislav_nikolic]: oh

674
00:33:24,040 –> 00:33:24,540
[paul_tyler]: rites but

675
00:33:24,484 –> 00:33:24,705
[laurence]: oh

676
00:33:25,101 –> 00:33:25,602
[paul_tyler]: lawrence that’s what

677
00:33:25,590 –> 00:33:25,870
[branislav_nikolic]: oh

678
00:33:25,642 –> 00:33:25,983
[paul_tyler]: i call you

679
00:33:26,631 –> 00:33:26,872
[branislav_nikolic]: yeah

680
00:33:26,684 –> 00:33:30,711
[paul_tyler]: so you know ve been doing so
much work with you know agents helping themselves

681
00:33:30,791 –> 00:33:31,232
[paul_tyler]: digitally

682
00:33:30,999 –> 00:33:31,200
[branislav_nikolic]: yeah

683
00:33:31,312 –> 00:33:33,495
[paul_tyler]: tell a story talking to consumers

684
00:33:33,345 –> 00:33:33,366
[tisa_rabun_marshall]: m

685
00:33:34,016 –> 00:33:39,525
[paul_tyler]: you know what goes through your mind
when you think about trying explain something this

686
00:33:39,626 –> 00:33:43,439
[paul_tyler]: complex on a website in a brosirt
in a video

687
00:33:43,609 –> 00:33:48,051
[tisa_rabun_marshall]: hm yeah i mean when i think
lawrence i heard you talk about you know

688
00:33:48,292 –> 00:33:51,196
[tisa_rabun_marshall]: the mer and missus smith or the
generic consumer

689
00:33:51,630 –> 00:33:52,710
[branislav_nikolic]: yeah

690
00:33:51,757 –> 00:33:57,648
[tisa_rabun_marshall]: are retiring out there thinking about planning
and de mystifying the idea of an annuity

691
00:33:57,709 –> 00:34:04,512
[tisa_rabun_marshall]: and the complexities of what we’re talking
about how does your presentation or or the

692
00:34:04,933 –> 00:34:08,679
[tisa_rabun_marshall]: educational tools at you’re offering how does
it break it down for them to kind

693
00:34:08,719 –> 00:34:14,849
[tisa_rabun_marshall]: of combat the emotional side of the
decision right um you’ve talked about the changing

694
00:34:15,911 –> 00:34:18,896
[tisa_rabun_marshall]: interest rates and inflation and all the
things that are ahead and a lot of

695
00:34:18,936 –> 00:34:23,183
[tisa_rabun_marshall]: the unknowns that are on head ahead
how does the tool kind of speak to

696
00:34:23,223 –> 00:34:23,384
[tisa_rabun_marshall]: that

697
00:34:23,454 –> 00:34:23,596
[laurence]: yeah

698
00:34:23,564 –> 00:34:26,688
[tisa_rabun_marshall]: emotional side oh i’ll say fear but

699
00:34:27,314 –> 00:34:27,743
[laurence]: damn

700
00:34:27,469 –> 00:34:30,953
[tisa_rabun_marshall]: at least sort of that uncertainty that’s
ahead and that agent or advisor bringing him

701
00:34:31,013 –> 00:34:32,875
[tisa_rabun_marshall]: through those conversations

702
00:34:32,190 –> 00:34:33,090
[branislav_nikolic]: yeah

703
00:34:34,354 –> 00:34:39,723
[laurence]: i think in a couple ways so
firstly what we do is for each index

704
00:34:39,943 –> 00:34:44,010
[laurence]: we evaluated so we’ll put a platinum
gold and silver

705
00:34:43,746 –> 00:34:43,908
[tisa_rabun_marshall]: okay

706
00:34:44,070 –> 00:34:44,992
[laurence]: and so on so that

707
00:34:45,028 –> 00:34:45,495
[tisa_rabun_marshall]: got reading

708
00:34:45,392 –> 00:34:48,718
[laurence]: you can add glance see what that
index is doing so it

709
00:34:48,722 –> 00:34:49,236
[tisa_rabun_marshall]: hm

710
00:34:48,758 –> 00:34:52,604
[laurence]: might be a little bit unfamiliar but
you get our sort of stamp of whether

711
00:34:52,644 –> 00:34:57,292
[laurence]: we think it’s a robust and well
designed index now the other thing we do

712
00:34:57,733 –> 00:35:03,445
[laurence]: is we all know finance is complex
and people love to use complicated

713
00:35:03,330 –> 00:35:03,596
[branislav_nikolic]: yeah

714
00:35:03,505 –> 00:35:04,368
[laurence]: language so we actually

715
00:35:04,290 –> 00:35:05,460
[branislav_nikolic]: yeah

716
00:35:04,448 –> 00:35:06,052
[laurence]: have a copy writer on our staff

717
00:35:06,177 –> 00:35:06,360
[tisa_rabun_marshall]: okay

718
00:35:06,714 –> 00:35:10,484
[laurence]: and we try and use straight forward
and clear language so i give you the

719
00:35:10,544 –> 00:35:16,560
[laurence]: example the way we would describe a
risk control index we just say cushions and

720
00:35:16,620 –> 00:35:17,102
[laurence]: it’s smooth

721
00:35:18,369 –> 00:35:18,512
[tisa_rabun_marshall]: yeah

722
00:35:18,504 –> 00:35:22,472
[laurence]: and then the final thing that we
do is we have our forecasting reports

723
00:35:22,800 –> 00:35:23,041
[branislav_nikolic]: yeah

724
00:35:23,804 –> 00:35:26,711
[laurence]: and we very clearly show here that
the last ten

725
00:35:26,639 –> 00:35:26,820
[branislav_nikolic]: yeah

726
00:35:26,771 –> 00:35:32,121
[laurence]: years maybe you got let’s say six
per cent and then here is what how

727
00:35:32,201 –> 00:35:35,206
[laurence]: we applied the wisdom of wall street
to that index and maybe you’re gonna get

728
00:35:35,867 –> 00:35:40,415
[laurence]: seven eight or nine or maybe you
got sixteen in history and we think you’re

729
00:35:40,435 –> 00:35:44,181
[laurence]: going to get full but we have
very clear bar chart so we try and

730
00:35:44,261 –> 00:35:52,475
[laurence]: provide people with visual simple language and
easy to understand demonicaswgoald platinum and

731
00:35:52,466 –> 00:35:53,156
[paul_tyler]: yeah

732
00:35:52,535 –> 00:35:52,836
[laurence]: so on

733
00:35:52,827 –> 00:35:53,256
[tisa_rabun_marshall]: hm

734
00:35:53,217 –> 00:35:55,683
[laurence]: to really help people when they’re making
those decisions

735
00:35:55,976 –> 00:35:56,436
[tisa_rabun_marshall]: yeah the gold

736
00:35:56,317 –> 00:35:56,500
[paul_tyler]: yeah

737
00:35:56,476 –> 00:35:58,578
[tisa_rabun_marshall]: silver plate that’s you know those are
the star

738
00:35:58,556 –> 00:35:58,879
[paul_tyler]: oh

739
00:35:58,678 –> 00:35:59,579
[tisa_rabun_marshall]: reviews rights really

740
00:35:59,486 –> 00:35:59,707
[paul_tyler]: oh

741
00:35:59,679 –> 00:36:00,140
[tisa_rabun_marshall]: at a glance

742
00:36:00,990 –> 00:36:01,231
[branislav_nikolic]: yah

743
00:36:01,261 –> 00:36:02,662
[tisa_rabun_marshall]: here’s the top middle and maybe

744
00:36:02,899 –> 00:36:03,039
[branislav_nikolic]: yah

745
00:36:03,142 –> 00:36:03,282
[tisa_rabun_marshall]: not

746
00:36:03,326 –> 00:36:03,694
[paul_tyler]: oh

747
00:36:03,382 –> 00:36:04,383
[tisa_rabun_marshall]: so good

748
00:36:04,755 –> 00:36:05,159
[laurence]: exactly

749
00:36:05,216 –> 00:36:05,396
[paul_tyler]: yeah

750
00:36:05,700 –> 00:36:06,143
[branislav_nikolic]: oh

751
00:36:05,765 –> 00:36:06,105
[tisa_rabun_marshall]: thank you

752
00:36:06,918 –> 00:36:06,938
[paul_tyler]: i

753
00:36:07,006 –> 00:36:07,027
[ramsey_d_smith]: m

754
00:36:07,058 –> 00:36:09,320
[paul_tyler]: love it bruno you know we’re close
to the top

755
00:36:09,318 –> 00:36:09,339
[branislav_nikolic]: a

756
00:36:09,360 –> 00:36:09,881
[paul_tyler]: of the hour i mean

757
00:36:09,937 –> 00:36:10,139
[ramsey_d_smith]: oh

758
00:36:09,941 –> 00:36:11,622
[paul_tyler]: what are your what

759
00:36:11,557 –> 00:36:11,738
[ramsey_d_smith]: oh

760
00:36:11,662 –> 00:36:11,863
[paul_tyler]: are your

761
00:36:11,860 –> 00:36:11,940
[bruno_caron]: ah

762
00:36:11,883 –> 00:36:13,464
[paul_tyler]: thoughts questions observations

763
00:36:14,324 –> 00:36:14,544
[bruno_caron]: well

764
00:36:14,846 –> 00:36:15,626
[paul_tyler]: oh

765
00:36:15,085 –> 00:36:16,307
[bruno_caron]: number one i think it’s

766
00:36:16,567 –> 00:36:16,811
[ramsey_d_smith]: oh

767
00:36:17,469 –> 00:36:18,391
[bruno_caron]: it’s wonderful

768
00:36:18,307 –> 00:36:18,327
[ramsey_d_smith]: m

769
00:36:18,511 –> 00:36:23,138
[bruno_caron]: that we’re going back or at least
you guys are going back to some of

770
00:36:23,319 –> 00:36:28,828
[bruno_caron]: basic some of the textbook concepts i
mean we live in a world of headlines

771
00:36:29,189 –> 00:36:29,489
[bruno_caron]: and you

772
00:36:29,460 –> 00:36:29,763
[branislav_nikolic]: yeah

773
00:36:29,509 –> 00:36:33,516
[bruno_caron]: know this is going on this is
going to just the fact that you’re framing

774
00:36:33,556 –> 00:36:38,524
[bruno_caron]: it that you’re actually putting it in
to a um some sort of framework some

775
00:36:38,584 –> 00:36:44,494
[bruno_caron]: sort of boundaries and sort of ratings
and in perspective with with the rest of

776
00:36:44,514 –> 00:36:49,242
[bruno_caron]: the economy i think that adds significant
value and i think that’s a that’s a

777
00:36:49,302 –> 00:36:52,386
[bruno_caron]: really that’s a very useful set for
for the industry

778
00:36:52,216 –> 00:36:52,237
[ramsey_d_smith]: m

779
00:36:54,138 –> 00:36:54,499
[paul_tyler]: ramsey

780
00:36:54,205 –> 00:36:54,512
[laurence]: thank you

781
00:36:55,057 –> 00:36:55,341
[ramsey_d_smith]: oh

782
00:36:55,112 –> 00:36:55,377
[branislav_nikolic]: thank you

783
00:36:55,423 –> 00:36:56,126
[paul_tyler]: you want you want to bring

784
00:36:56,174 –> 00:36:56,317
[ramsey_d_smith]: yeah

785
00:36:56,187 –> 00:36:56,448
[paul_tyler]: us some

786
00:36:57,027 –> 00:37:02,195
[ramsey_d_smith]: yeah so i wholeheartedly agree this is
this is an area that’s expanded

787
00:37:03,026 –> 00:37:03,312
[paul_tyler]: oh

788
00:37:03,187 –> 00:37:06,652
[ramsey_d_smith]: dramatically and again the choices expanded

789
00:37:06,656 –> 00:37:06,923
[paul_tyler]: oh

790
00:37:06,753 –> 00:37:10,859
[ramsey_d_smith]: much more quickly than the analytical framework
behind it and

791
00:37:10,925 –> 00:37:10,946
[paul_tyler]: m

792
00:37:11,200 –> 00:37:15,447
[ramsey_d_smith]: you know we live in a we
live in an environment where the elytics

793
00:37:15,390 –> 00:37:15,755
[branislav_nikolic]: yeah

794
00:37:15,487 –> 00:37:18,112
[ramsey_d_smith]: are important they’re important for legal reasons
they’re important for

795
00:37:18,101 –> 00:37:18,202
[branislav_nikolic]: ah

796
00:37:18,432 –> 00:37:23,801
[ramsey_d_smith]: just helping people make the make the
right decision they’re important for helping people feel

797
00:37:23,921 –> 00:37:30,552
[ramsey_d_smith]: comfortable with their decisions and you know
as as i mentioned before i think it’s

798
00:37:30,592 –> 00:37:36,562
[ramsey_d_smith]: going to be useful certainly at the
consumer level at the advisor level i think

799
00:37:36,742 –> 00:37:42,249
[ramsey_d_smith]: very importantly at the institutional level where
you know the burdens of the burdens of

800
00:37:42,870 –> 00:37:46,513
[ramsey_d_smith]: proof if you will are very high
i think that this is this is this

801
00:37:46,573 –> 00:37:51,327
[ramsey_d_smith]: is going to be very important and
and it’s something that gets asked about a

802
00:37:51,407 –> 00:37:53,871
[ramsey_d_smith]: lot of meetings when you’re if you’re
talking to

803
00:37:53,824 –> 00:37:54,454
[laurence]: oh

804
00:37:53,971 –> 00:37:57,497
[ramsey_d_smith]: larger insurance companies and this is something
that comes up a lot this isn’t this

805
00:37:57,537 –> 00:38:02,265
[ramsey_d_smith]: has been an unanswered question so i
think this is this is this is this

806
00:38:02,325 –> 00:38:03,106
[ramsey_d_smith]: is a great initiative

807
00:38:05,656 –> 00:38:07,900
[paul_tyler]: yeah lawrence you know you saw

808
00:38:08,107 –> 00:38:08,408
[ramsey_d_smith]: yeah

809
00:38:08,180 –> 00:38:08,841
[paul_tyler]: afa on

810
00:38:08,880 –> 00:38:09,750
[branislav_nikolic]: yeah

811
00:38:09,602 –> 00:38:10,163
[paul_tyler]: that discussion

812
00:38:10,140 –> 00:38:10,321
[branislav_nikolic]: ye

813
00:38:10,243 –> 00:38:11,926
[paul_tyler]: panel how much

814
00:38:12,157 –> 00:38:12,379
[ramsey_d_smith]: yeah

815
00:38:12,780 –> 00:38:13,620
[branislav_nikolic]: oh

816
00:38:13,248 –> 00:38:14,491
[paul_tyler]: independent marketing organizations

817
00:38:14,122 –> 00:38:14,286
[branislav_nikolic]: yeah

818
00:38:14,891 –> 00:38:18,577
[paul_tyler]: need this type of tool for their
marketers and for their agent so i think

819
00:38:18,617 –> 00:38:23,382
[paul_tyler]: the time couldn’t be better what’s the
best way for people to find out more

820
00:38:23,462 –> 00:38:26,024
[paul_tyler]: about your product or reach out to
you personally

821
00:38:27,034 –> 00:38:33,965
[laurence]: sure so our website has a lot
of greater information and that’s the index standard

822
00:38:34,025 –> 00:38:38,854
[laurence]: dot com and you can email us
at info at the index standard dot com

823
00:38:39,475 –> 00:38:44,062
[laurence]: i’m also pretty active on linked in
so brandon slab please follow us we also

824
00:38:44,122 –> 00:38:48,229
[laurence]: have linked in at the index standard
follow us and we kind of put some

825
00:38:48,429 –> 00:38:51,786
[laurence]: our insights there and of course our
newsletter as well with with you guys

826
00:38:52,516 –> 00:38:55,721
[paul_tyler]: excellent all right well listen thanks so
much for joining us we

827
00:38:55,770 –> 00:38:56,011
[branislav_nikolic]: yeah

828
00:38:55,781 –> 00:39:00,509
[paul_tyler]: want to thank all our listeners and
you know please give us feedback comments and

829
00:39:00,649 –> 00:39:02,412
[paul_tyler]: as long as they’re good bruno i

830
00:39:02,400 –> 00:39:02,701
[branislav_nikolic]: oh

831
00:39:02,492 –> 00:39:02,713
[paul_tyler]: actually

832
00:39:02,644 –> 00:39:02,726
[laurence]: ye

833
00:39:02,733 –> 00:39:04,676
[paul_tyler]: had somebody coming on my audio

834
00:39:04,661 –> 00:39:04,681
[branislav_nikolic]: m

835
00:39:04,796 –> 00:39:05,518
[paul_tyler]: editing skills and

836
00:39:06,319 –> 00:39:09,769
[bruno_caron]: uh

837
00:39:06,720 –> 00:39:06,981
[branislav_nikolic]: yah

838
00:39:07,601 –> 00:39:08,462
[paul_tyler]: a lack thereof

839
00:39:08,688 –> 00:39:08,889
[branislav_nikolic]: yah

840
00:39:09,244 –> 00:39:10,826
[paul_tyler]: so we we welcome all

841
00:39:10,710 –> 00:39:10,930
[branislav_nikolic]: yeah

842
00:39:11,067 –> 00:39:13,050
[paul_tyler]: and you know listen join us again
next

843
00:39:13,058 –> 00:39:13,078
[bruno_caron]: h

844
00:39:13,150 –> 00:39:16,316
[paul_tyler]: week for another episode of that annuity

845
00:39:16,419 –> 00:39:16,479
[branislav_nikolic]: ah

846
00:39:16,436 –> 00:39:17,242
[paul_tyler]: show thanks

847
00:39:20,767 –> 00:39:21,007
[ramsey_d_smith]: oh

848
00:39:33,487 –> 00:39:37,409
[ramsey_d_smith]: oh oh oh

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