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[Paul Tyler]: hi this is paul tyler and welcome to another episode of that annuity show ramsey
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[Paul Tyler]: another great guest this time do you want to do the honors and introduce us
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[Ramsey Smith]: absolutely i’d be happy to so we’re joined today by don ezra from sunny toronto
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[Ramsey Smith]: canada
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[Ramsey Smith]: and this is a fantastic opportunity today for a number of reasons but the primary
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[Ramsey Smith]: reason is
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[Ramsey Smith]: that don spends a lot of time talking about what we do and how we feel about
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[Ramsey Smith]: retirement both the transition into retirement and and life
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[Ramsey Smith]: in in retirement or graduation as he likes to put it which i think is a fantastic
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[Ramsey Smith]: word so don spent many years at russell investments and has a phenomenal
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[Ramsey Smith]: background was an actuary but
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[Paul Tyler]: thank
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[Ramsey Smith]: this very interesting thing that that don does he’s forward focused and we’re
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[Ramsey Smith]: going to talk about that and that’s something that all of us in our lives will
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[Ramsey Smith]: have to face and and that annuity show is about more than just the money and so
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[Ramsey Smith]: that’s why is this is really a fantastic opportunity for us so
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[Ramsey Smith]: tell us
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[Paul Tyler]: help
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[Ramsey Smith]: tell us a little bit about your about your journey and and how you came to the to
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[Ramsey Smith]: the conclusion that it was worth it made not just worth it was it was worth it
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[Ramsey Smith]: was an important time opportunity to focus on life after graduation if you will
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[Don Ezra]: absolutely thank you for the the very generous introduction and it’s an honor to
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[Don Ezra]: join the past list of guests you’ve had on your show it’s fantastic thank you
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[Don Ezra]: so i actually retired as the word goes i hate it as you said i prefer graduation
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[Don Ezra]: from full time work but i i retired at a time of my own choosing which many
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[Don Ezra]: people don’t get do and in a way i wanted to do
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[Don Ezra]: and i continued working part time with
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[Don Ezra]: russell and so everything was absolutely perfect and i was absolutely astonished
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[Ramsey Smith]: it’s like everything
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[Don Ezra]: as a result of that to find that i felt completely discombobulated i had no idea
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[Don Ezra]: what had suddenly gone wrong
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[Don Ezra]: but all of a sudden
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[Don Ezra]: things seemed to be falling apart even though i was doing it exactly the way i
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[Don Ezra]: wanted to and and i realized that
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[Don Ezra]: something
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[Paul Tyler]: what
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[Don Ezra]: my friend mayor sta and a professor at santa clara university
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[Don Ezra]: had said was really really really important and i’d never realized he so when
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[Don Ezra]: when
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[Paul Tyler]: what
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[Don Ezra]: when you when you leave work
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[Don Ezra]: you lose part of your identity you lose
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[Don Ezra]: access to your accomplishments you you you lose a community and at russell we
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[Don Ezra]: were not just colleagues we were friends and i lost all of that even though i
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[Don Ezra]: only lost half of it because the rest of the time was all my own
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[Paul Tyler]: the
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[Don Ezra]: but i felt that
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[Paul Tyler]: my
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[Don Ezra]: i i’d been i was a tree that had been uprooted i was
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[Don Ezra]: a very healthy tree it it had grown in soil that nurtured the growth and it was
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[Don Ezra]: thriving and all of a sudden it was uprooted and now i had decisions to me what
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[Don Ezra]: kind of a tree did i want to be where did i want to plant it and wherever i was
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[Don Ezra]: going to plant it the roots would take time to penetrate and grow back again and
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[Don Ezra]: as it happened it took me about three years of thinking about this and
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[Don Ezra]: researching it i mean i
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[Paul Tyler]: oh
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[Don Ezra]: was a consultant what do consultants do other than research
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[Don Ezra]: and benefit from other people’s wisdom which they absorb it took me three years
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[Don Ezra]: before i realized the kinds of things i wanted to do
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[Don Ezra]: and and part of that was actually moving from new york back to toronto which i
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[Don Ezra]: had left twenty five years earlier and it was all that kind of stuff
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[Don Ezra]: that that made me realize that transition i mean we talk about retirement as if
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[Don Ezra]: yesterday you were working today or retired transition is actually
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[Don Ezra]: psychologically a very important stage and in my case it was a three year long
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[Don Ezra]: stage and one of the things that the guys at russell had me do was the first
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[Ramsey Smith]: yeah
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[Don Ezra]: year into that they had me back at the client conference which it had been my job
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[Don Ezra]: to organize in the past and they
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[Paul Tyler]: i think
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[Don Ezra]: had me give a keynote just describing myself s in retirement and it’s the only
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[Don Ezra]: time in my life i ever had a standing ovation and i know what it was i mean we
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[Don Ezra]: were friends with the clients too so they they liked the old guy they were seeing
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[Don Ezra]: in front of them like seam again et cetera
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[Paul Tyler]: what
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[Don Ezra]: etc but i think they realized that this was something they were going to have to
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[Don Ezra]: go through and the honesty of here’s how i feel here’s what i’m doing here’s
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[Don Ezra]: what’s going right here’s what i’m wondering about i think i think that got
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[Don Ezra]: through to them in a very personal way because they knew they were going to have
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[Don Ezra]: to go through that as well
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[Paul Tyler]: then
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[Don Ezra]: and it was as a result of that that i thought ok can i be a consultant again can
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[Don Ezra]: i research this and so i started researching in god bless the internet and and
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[Don Ezra]: that ended up first in a book on happiness because i’d been studying the brain
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[Don Ezra]: for behavioral finance considerations and stuff like that and after that into
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[Don Ezra]: what are the issues that are involved that have caused me to be to be so
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[Don Ezra]: uncomfortable i don’t know if combobulated is a word but after being disco bob i
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[Don Ezra]: finally got cobo bl it again
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[Don Ezra]: and it occurred to me that sort of if you think of this as a journey life this is
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[Don Ezra]: a journey through the second part of your life it’s long enough to be a life so i
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[Don Ezra]: call it life too
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[Don Ezra]: the
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[Paul Tyler]: no
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[Don Ezra]: there are there are some rocks you need to avoid and as i thought about it i mean
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[Don Ezra]: education is the way to do this but what are the subjects it’s not history math
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[Don Ezra]: geography literature and stuff like that the three rocks to avoid there’s there’s
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[Don Ezra]: there’s an identity rock there’s an activity rock and there’s a money rock so
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[Don Ezra]: exactly as she said ramsey there’s there’s much
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[Paul Tyler]: oh
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[Don Ezra]: more to this than just money
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[Don Ezra]: and some people avoid them all some people hit them all but if you’re aware of
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[Don Ezra]: those rocks the identity the activity and the money rocks at least you know what
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[Don Ezra]: you’re looking for and you can get i put together as much wisdom as i could
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[Don Ezra]: assemble from other people’s lives and my own
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[Don Ezra]: and then put them under these headings and say what can you do
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[Don Ezra]: how do you identify the issues and these headings in your own life and then what
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[Don Ezra]: questions can you ask yourself to relate to how you can then start to at least be
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[Don Ezra]: in control it’s it’s like most people have fear and dread when they think about
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[Don Ezra]: retirement they they they don’t want it it’s they don’t say that they say it’s
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[Don Ezra]: too complicated but it’s not actually too complicated for them it’s just they
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[Don Ezra]: don’t want to think about it they’re scared and so that’s that’s where i where i
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[Don Ezra]: tried to help with the book and with my blog posts on my website and stuff like
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[Don Ezra]: that
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[Paul Tyler]: so three rocks i love it uh
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[Paul Tyler]: do you navigate the rocks by yourself or on who helped you navigate your rocks
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[Paul Tyler]: who were the guides along that path
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[Don Ezra]: well
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[Ramsey Smith]: we see that too
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[Don Ezra]: they say there are ten thousand baby boomers a day retiring now
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[Don Ezra]: and they don’t have enough help et cetera baby boomers baby boomers are kids to
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[Don Ezra]: me i’m a world war two baby so i had
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[Ramsey Smith]: hm
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[Don Ezra]: absolutely no help so i had to do this myself i think more and more
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[Paul Tyler]: i
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[Don Ezra]: today there are people who are becoming experts in this area who can help you on
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[Don Ezra]: the money side of course
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[Paul Tyler]: st
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[Don Ezra]: there are there’s expertise all over the place but on the psychological side
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[Don Ezra]: more and more that there are retirement planners who are coming along who who
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[Don Ezra]: retire and coaches is i think they call themselves and they deal with the
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[Don Ezra]: psychological and practical aspects as opposed to the financial aspect so it is
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[Don Ezra]: possible to get help these days
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[Ramsey Smith]: but what is the best way to think about
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[Ramsey Smith]: like let’s start with the identity rock that’s a that’s a really tough one that’s
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[Ramsey Smith]: that in some ways that’s the you know that seems like the the the least solvable
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[Ramsey Smith]: one of the hardest one to solve right because it’s so it’s so
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[Don Ezra]: i i think you spot on yeah
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[Ramsey Smith]: sub subjective yeah so so how do people so jill or john is retiring and they’re
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[Ramsey Smith]: dealing with this i mean you took three years and you know you took you worked on
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[Ramsey Smith]: it very deliberately so
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[Paul Tyler]: oh
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[Paul Tyler]: god
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[Don Ezra]: yeah
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[Ramsey Smith]: what should people expect is the right amount of time for that transition and
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[Ramsey Smith]: what are the most concrete steps they can make to get to get going on it
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[Don Ezra]: i i think i think you probably ought to start maybe at five years before you’re
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[Don Ezra]: planning to graduate
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[Ramsey Smith]: wow okay
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[Don Ezra]: and start thinking about well one of the reasons is that i’ve seen statistics
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[Don Ezra]: that say half of retirees retired before they planned to
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[Paul Tyler]: it is
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[Don Ezra]: i mean it it it it it could be uh your ill health the ill health of someone else
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[Don Ezra]: you have to look after it could be layoffs it could be all kinds of things but
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[Don Ezra]: half of people don’t retire when they’re planning to so give it five years to
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[Don Ezra]: think about it
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[Don Ezra]: and i think some of the things you need to think about as what is important to
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[Don Ezra]: you
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[Don Ezra]: as i quoted mayor staten
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[Don Ezra]: the more successful you’ve been
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[Don Ezra]: the more your identity is tied to your work
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[Don Ezra]: and the more your life sort of surrounds it in fact until covid came along
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[Ramsey Smith]: yes
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[Don Ezra]: most of us the happier we were at work spent far more time at work than we ever
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[Don Ezra]: did at home and in fact having to work from home i understand has driven the
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[Don Ezra]: divorce rate up so it’s it’s yeah it’s not an easy thing to come back so it’s
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[Don Ezra]: partly the activity the combined activity but partly the identity thing too so
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[Don Ezra]: who am i is the big question
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[Don Ezra]: and
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[Don Ezra]: i i found there were a couple of sets of questions to ask yourself
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[Don Ezra]: that tend to help here at at a very very very high level gentleman named george
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[Don Ezra]: kinder i came up with with three life questions and there as follows one is
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[Don Ezra]: you have all the money
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[Don Ezra]: you want how would you live your life okay
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[Don Ezra]: question two
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[Don Ezra]: you’ve just been told you have five to ten years to live
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[Don Ezra]: how would you change your life
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[Don Ezra]: question three you’ve just been told you have twenty four hours to live what are
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[Don Ezra]: your regrets
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[Don Ezra]: and out of that you can start
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[Don Ezra]: i mean these are not questions you answer in sixty seconds these are questions
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[Don Ezra]: you ponder over and take your time over and perhaps every five years you want to
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[Don Ezra]: rethink them
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[Don Ezra]: but these are things that ought to give you some sense of what is the most
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[Don Ezra]: important purpose i have etc etc etc that’s a very high level one at a lower
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[Don Ezra]: level one another one i found very useful is is by a guy named ed jacobson
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[Don Ezra]: who came up with the concept of a life’s abundance portfolio so a portfolio is
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[Don Ezra]: just a collection of things under different headings and this is your life’s
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[Don Ezra]: abundance and he said there were seven different factors
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[Ramsey Smith]: no
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[Don Ezra]: to me there’s seven asset classes in the life’s abundance portfolio and i cannot
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[Don Ezra]: remember
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[Don Ezra]: the names ed gave it but i remember them myself very simply in pairs family
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[Don Ezra]: and friends
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[Don Ezra]: work and play
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[Don Ezra]: mental health which
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[Ramsey Smith]: you
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[Don Ezra]: includes spirituality and
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[Ramsey Smith]: w
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[Don Ezra]: physical health i said there were seven oh yes money
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[Ramsey Smith]: so
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[Don Ezra]: so these are the seven asset classes in your life’s abundance portfolio and on
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[Don Ezra]: each of them give yourself a personal rating where am i on a scale of zero to ten
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[Don Ezra]: where would i wreck myself there are no right answers or wrong answers and only
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[Don Ezra]: your answer is relevant people may say you’re an awful so and so and you should
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[Don Ezra]: rate yourself very lowly on that no no no only your own answer is
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[Ramsey Smith]: what
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[Don Ezra]: relevant so rate yourself there and then look back on your ratings and say are
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[Don Ezra]: there which are the ones i’m comfortable with i mean you could be comfortable
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[Don Ezra]: with a force somewhere and uncomfortable with the seven that’s okay which are the
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[Don Ezra]: ones i’m uncomfortable with and then what is in my power
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[Don Ezra]: to raise my rating in those asset classes in my life’s abundance portfolio and
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[Don Ezra]: that starts to give you some feeling of what are the things you can do that are
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[Don Ezra]: more important to you etc etc etc and one of the other things this starts to
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[Don Ezra]: to get to and it took me far more than my personal three years of transition to
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[Don Ezra]: come to this realization that one of the things that has become important to me
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[Don Ezra]: personally is the legacy i leave not financial legacy the emotional legacy will
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[Don Ezra]: people think of me after i’m gone on this earth that’s as close to immortality
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[Don Ezra]: i’m likely to get and it’s gonna be family and friends and it’ll be for a few
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[Don Ezra]: years that’s it but will they think of me happily
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[Don Ezra]: i
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[Don Ezra]: the way i’ve been behaving they will think of me
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[Don Ezra]: not only with the smile but with a laugh because i’ve they they keep pointing out
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[Don Ezra]: all the stupid things that this very intelligent person does and they say oh do
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[Don Ezra]: you see what don just did oh uncle don did so and so grand et cetera et cetera
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[Don Ezra]: and and
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[Don Ezra]: i i love i love that because intellect is not what this is all about money
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[Don Ezra]: financial legacy is not what this is all about it’s the emotional legacy that at
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[Don Ezra]: this stage of my life has become important to me and i think questions like that
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[Don Ezra]: start to start to change your mindset it may take a
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[Paul Tyler]: i
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[Don Ezra]: long time as i say particularly the more successful we’ve been the longer it
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[Don Ezra]: takes for us to say but that was in the past what about the future
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[Don Ezra]: and and that’s why that’s why i describe myself not just as retired because
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[Don Ezra]: retired is a backward looking word
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[Don Ezra]: but happily retired because i i i feel i’m in the driver’s seat i i still have to
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[Don Ezra]: make decisions on direction on speed
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[Don Ezra]: but in my life’s car at least i’m in the driver’s seat and that’s as as any as
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[Don Ezra]: anyone could have
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[Paul Tyler]: yeah i i’m not sure many people have a true accounting of their assets for
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[Paul Tyler]: happiness right don i think it also adds a whole nother
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[Paul Tyler]: layer to the question of
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[Paul Tyler]: are you leading a rich life
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[Don Ezra]: beautifully put yes exactly exactly
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[Ramsey Smith]: so one of the things that that comes to mind is as i listen to you spell out
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[Ramsey Smith]: these these various priorities these two different sort of paradigms for
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[Ramsey Smith]: priorities is in the in the first or the second one it was interesting that that
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[Ramsey Smith]: money came last and the first one money i don’t believe it was mentioned
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[Ramsey Smith]: mentioned at all
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[Ramsey Smith]: and
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[Don Ezra]: right man
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[Ramsey Smith]: one of the things i think is
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[Don Ezra]: what
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[Ramsey Smith]: often lost on people is that how you prioritize
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[Don Ezra]: right
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[Ramsey Smith]: all those quality of life issues actually can really help
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[Don Ezra]: i
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[Ramsey Smith]: inform the right answer on the money problem right and sometimes
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[Don Ezra]: that
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[Ramsey Smith]: sometimes we’re trying to fix things with money when they’re not really money
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[Ramsey Smith]: problems and that creates stress in and of itself so so
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[Don Ezra]: so so
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[Ramsey Smith]: h how do you
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[Paul Tyler]: and
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[Ramsey Smith]: do you think that
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[Don Ezra]: you
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[Ramsey Smith]: that in in the world of advice if you will do you think this should be a more
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[Ramsey Smith]: important part of
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[Ramsey Smith]: the the advising that is given to retirees potential retirees and maybe is the
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[Ramsey Smith]: case today
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[Don Ezra]: i yes i think so but i think the the client has to be open to it and in fact ed
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[Don Ezra]: jacobson’s life’s abundance portfolio was something i came across at an aicpa
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[Don Ezra]: conference so accountants and ed was speaking we were both speaking there and so
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[Don Ezra]: i done my stuff and and here was a session about having good conversations with
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[Don Ezra]: clients that was what ed
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[Ramsey Smith]: uhhuh
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[Don Ezra]: was talking about and one of the things he mentioned was here are some subjects
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[Don Ezra]: you can talk about and call it the life of life’s abundance portfolio et cetera
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[Don Ezra]: but it’s not always easy to raise the subject one of the things i remember him
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[Don Ezra]: saying was that you want to if you were the one raising the subject
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[Don Ezra]: you want to raise it at a time when things are going well from an investment and
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[Don Ezra]: financial point of view otherwise there might be a suspicion that you’re raising
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[Don Ezra]: it for other reasons so raise it at when other things are going well and
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[Paul Tyler]: i mean
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[Don Ezra]: now you can introduce these new subjects and it’s not always easy to get client’s
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[Don Ezra]: attention because they’ve got to give of themselves much more personally this way
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[Don Ezra]: they have to open up they have to expose themselves and it’s very difficult but
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[Don Ezra]: if you can get a client involved in that way these are things that are that are
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[Don Ezra]: doubly helpful because
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[Don Ezra]: they’re they they’re helpful not only in the
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[Paul Tyler]: i
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[Don Ezra]: conversation and helping the client shape their lives in the future but also
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[Don Ezra]: it allows them to focus on things other than money and
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[Ramsey Smith]: mm hm
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[Don Ezra]: then from your point of view i think it it it helps as well because
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[Don Ezra]: i read i don’t know if this is still true or not because i i don’t have the facts
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[Don Ezra]: but i read that many people have multiple advisors
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[Don Ezra]: and they would like to consolidate under one advisor
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[Don Ezra]: i think the likelihood of being that one advisor is higher if in fact you were
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[Don Ezra]: talking holistically about the whole life’s abundance portfolio then if all
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[Don Ezra]: you’re doing is talking about you know here was your return in the last month the
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[Don Ezra]: last year the last five years et cetera et cetera et cetera because
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[Don Ezra]: that also helps
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[Don Ezra]: for well for
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[Don Ezra]: for example for for people who are not necessarily financially very
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[Don Ezra]: interested literate whatever the word is take my wife she’s a very very very
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[Don Ezra]: intelligent person
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[Don Ezra]: but she does not want to get involved in finance she leaves that to me
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[Don Ezra]: the one thing she understands about our
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[Don Ezra]: arrangements are that we have enough all our needs permanently and as far as our
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[Paul Tyler]: what
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[Don Ezra]: wants are concerned
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[Don Ezra]: that depends on where markets are et cetera et cetera et cetera and we have we
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[Don Ezra]: have set up a our own portfolio this ’cause this was my
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[Don Ezra]: world war two having to do things for myself i learned i learned from my pension
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[Don Ezra]: fund clients to first you survive then you thrive so we’ve got five years of
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[Don Ezra]: cash flow needs okay
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[Don Ezra]: with cash like
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[Don Ezra]: in investments
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[Ramsey Smith]: oh
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[Don Ezra]: and that gives us five years of security should the market fall suddenly if it
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[Don Ezra]: doesn’t fall we will take money out of our market portfolio and spend it if it
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[Don Ezra]: falls we’ve got five years for it to recover and at least historically who knows
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[Don Ezra]: what the future will bring at least historically seventy fifty five percent of
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[Don Ezra]: the time the market has recovered in real terms inflation adjusted terms after
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[Don Ezra]: five years and she gets this that we have five years of virtual safety and then
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[Don Ezra]: the rest is all in a growth
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[Ramsey Smith]: he
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[Don Ezra]: portfolio and what she understands when for example
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[Don Ezra]: two years ago in march when covid started and the market just crashed she said
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[Ramsey Smith]: what
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[Don Ezra]: what what does this do to us
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[Don Ezra]: and the answer was right now nothing we are doing nothing and we will know what
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[Don Ezra]: it does to us five years from now because
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[Ramsey Smith]: oh
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[Don Ezra]: we don’t have to worry and as a matter of fact as the market has gone up so much
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[Don Ezra]: one of the things we’ve done is expanded our safety net from five years to much
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[Don Ezra]: more because
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[Don Ezra]: sorry i’ve i’ve got way off to wear off your question
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[Ramsey Smith]: now keep going
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[Paul Tyler]: no have
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[Ramsey Smith]: this is good
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[Don Ezra]: what one of the things that in our projections is i’m hoping for a real four
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[Don Ezra]: percent return on the equity portfolio on average over the long term if i get if
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[Don Ezra]: i get four percent i’m happy to cash out the next year’s worth etc in addition to
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[Don Ezra]: the five years where we’ve had such high returns that i’ve cashed out an extra
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[Don Ezra]: year for each of the four percents we’ve made and
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[Ramsey Smith]: okay
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[Don Ezra]: so now we have a safety net a safety part that is way longer than five years
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[Don Ezra]: and and so it’s stuff like that that psychologically i think is very important
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[Don Ezra]: and if you can put that psychological fear to rest then you can help with all the
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[Don Ezra]: other things etc and and you get so much more personal in the conversation with
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[Don Ezra]: the clients when you’re talking about family and friends work and play mental and
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[Don Ezra]: physical health etc etc because now now you’re a friend you’re not you’re not
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[Don Ezra]: just an expert you are an expert who’s a friend
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[Paul Tyler]: don the timing of the conversations you mentioned i think is
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[Paul Tyler]: so important
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[Paul Tyler]: want to have my conversation about my wife about the following ramsey there’s
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[Paul Tyler]: certain times that do it at certain
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[Don Ezra]: th
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[Paul Tyler]: times not today this morning was not a couple topics but dodd
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[Don Ezra]: what
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[Paul Tyler]: you might also mention retirement coaches sort of the evolution of retirement
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[Paul Tyler]: coaching coming in here
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[Paul Tyler]: can i i if i if i were a financial advisor and you were advising me on how to
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[Paul Tyler]: reshape shape my practice should i lead with that conversation
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[Paul Tyler]: purpose
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[Paul Tyler]: you know a
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[Paul Tyler]: happiness assets or is this something i earn the right to the conversation i have
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[Paul Tyler]: the e have to earn the right in order to have that with you
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[Don Ezra]: i really don’t know i don’t know what the answer is and i suspect it probably
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[Don Ezra]: varies from client to client and with the personality of the advisor and and what
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[Don Ezra]: kind of relationship
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[Don Ezra]: you have right from the start
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[Paul Tyler]: but
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[Don Ezra]: i really don’t know the answers to
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[Don Ezra]: is there a right way to do it or not
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[Don Ezra]: i think your judgment there would be much better than mine
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[Ramsey Smith]: well listening to your listening to your story it’s
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[Ramsey Smith]: there’s a lot of things going on so there is there is obviously there’s trust
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[Don Ezra]: look in one
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[Ramsey Smith]: you’re in a marriage that’s something that’s you know
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[Ramsey Smith]: extant
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[Don Ezra]: yes
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[Ramsey Smith]: so there’s trust
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[Ramsey Smith]: there’s been this ability to
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[Don Ezra]: ye
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[Ramsey Smith]: narrow sort of a complicated investment strategy
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[Don Ezra]: scrap
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[Ramsey Smith]: into a few key parameters five years of
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[Don Ezra]: but
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[Ramsey Smith]: safety you know if this then that
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[Don Ezra]: if that
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[Ramsey Smith]: else this then that right it’s a very
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[Don Ezra]: right
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[Ramsey Smith]: small subset of pieces of the puzzle
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[Paul Tyler]: that’s
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[Don Ezra]: a
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[Ramsey Smith]: and also a very fundamental element
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[Don Ezra]: one
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[Ramsey Smith]: is
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[Ramsey Smith]: is this notion that if something does happen there’s a willingness to make the
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[Ramsey Smith]: necessary adjustments we had bill banging on in the last couple of weeks and this
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[Ramsey Smith]: is one of the things that he talked about a lot is just the the
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[Ramsey Smith]: ultimately like
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[Don Ezra]: oh
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[Ramsey Smith]: the killer app using my own words killer app and retirement is is flexibility in
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[Ramsey Smith]: your spending like almost more
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[Don Ezra]: absolutely
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[Ramsey Smith]: almost more than anything else and so
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[Ramsey Smith]: a and and to get to that
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[Ramsey Smith]: part
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[Don Ezra]: yeah
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[Ramsey Smith]: of it is figuring out what’s really important everything else you’ve emphasized
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[Ramsey Smith]: so it’s just interesting to see how all the other qualitative issues that you
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[Ramsey Smith]: brought to the fore here
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[Ramsey Smith]: all that ultimately translate into you know greater safety and retirement because
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[Ramsey Smith]: you’ve narrowed down parameters and you and you’ve and you’ve imparted a you know
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[Ramsey Smith]: a culture a philosophy of
418
00:24:03,466 –> 00:24:04,466
[Paul Tyler]: understood
419
00:24:03,600 –> 00:24:04,640
[Ramsey Smith]: like a flexibility
420
00:24:06,979 –> 00:24:10,259
[Don Ezra]: absolutely absolutely anything bill says is gonna be wise
421
00:24:10,300 –> 00:24:11,300
[Ramsey Smith]: yeah right
422
00:24:10,419 –> 00:24:12,419
[Don Ezra]: anyway we know that because he’s such
423
00:24:12,100 –> 00:24:13,100
[Ramsey Smith]: yeah
424
00:24:12,279 –> 00:24:13,279
[Don Ezra]: a great guy
425
00:24:14,359 –> 00:24:15,359
[Don Ezra]: but
426
00:24:16,839 –> 00:24:17,839
[Don Ezra]: i think
427
00:24:20,019 –> 00:24:24,819
[Don Ezra]: an important thing that i’ve realized as i’ve come across many advisors
428
00:24:25,859 –> 00:24:27,699
[Don Ezra]: is the question of defining risk
429
00:24:29,379 –> 00:24:34,819
[Don Ezra]: and from a professional point of view risk in terms of standard deviation of
430
00:24:35,139 –> 00:24:38,979
[Don Ezra]: investment returns the stuff marco witz came up with seventy years ago when
431
00:24:39,139 –> 00:24:41,299
[Don Ezra]: modern portfolio theory started
432
00:24:42,579 –> 00:24:47,539
[Don Ezra]: i think that that’s a completely foreign concept to most people it it’s it’s only
433
00:24:47,699 –> 00:24:52,419
[Don Ezra]: us geeks who get into that kind of thing risk is actually a psychological
434
00:24:52,100 –> 00:24:53,100
[Ramsey Smith]: yeah
435
00:24:52,579 –> 00:24:58,339
[Don Ezra]: question it’s a lifestyle question it’s what is the risk to my lifestyle what are
436
00:24:57,999 –> 00:24:58,999
[Don Ezra]: the things
437
00:24:58,266 –> 00:24:59,266
[Paul Tyler]: but
438
00:24:58,819 –> 00:25:00,179
[Don Ezra]: i might not be able to do
439
00:25:01,219 –> 00:25:06,499
[Don Ezra]: and you have to understand the client’s lifestyle the clients’ goals and fears
440
00:25:07,699 –> 00:25:13,699
[Don Ezra]: and and in in that area the clients the expert and the financial expert is in
441
00:25:13,699 –> 00:25:18,579
[Don Ezra]: fact the person learning from it whereas most of the time the financial expert is
442
00:25:18,579 –> 00:25:23,139
[Don Ezra]: the expert and the client is trying to learn or relate to it but the idea of
443
00:25:23,219 –> 00:25:27,939
[Don Ezra]: saying the client is the expert on himself or herself and you have to learn about
444
00:25:28,019 –> 00:25:34,499
[Don Ezra]: it is very very important then with your financial expertise you can translate
445
00:25:34,659 –> 00:25:40,179
[Don Ezra]: their psychological lifestyle risk into investment terms and you can do that and
446
00:25:40,259 –> 00:25:44,019
[Don Ezra]: they may not understand that and they may not but but you’ve understood it and
447
00:25:44,099 –> 00:25:48,739
[Don Ezra]: that’s what you’ve done and then when you explain the results or when you explain
448
00:25:48,746 –> 00:25:49,746
[Paul Tyler]: school
449
00:25:49,379 –> 00:25:53,859
[Don Ezra]: the basis on which you have made a proposal or given advice et cetera et cetera
450
00:25:54,339 –> 00:25:55,539
[Don Ezra]: you can then relate it to
451
00:25:56,819 –> 00:26:00,979
[Don Ezra]: these are the goals you have here’s what we’re trying to achieve and these are
452
00:26:01,059 –> 00:26:05,539
[Don Ezra]: the things we’re trying to avoid and nothing is ever given this is an uncertain
453
00:26:05,699 –> 00:26:10,259
[Don Ezra]: world and in the investment world is one of the more uncertain parts even in an
454
00:26:10,419 –> 00:26:14,499
[Don Ezra]: uncertain world but here are the kinds of precautions which you’re trying to take
455
00:26:14,599 –> 00:26:15,599
[Don Ezra]: have i
456
00:26:14,986 –> 00:26:15,986
[Paul Tyler]: okay
457
00:26:15,459 –> 00:26:20,739
[Don Ezra]: have i read you right is this is does this sound right to you this is so much
458
00:26:20,899 –> 00:26:26,979
[Don Ezra]: better than a quarterly return then which quartile are you in et cetera etc and i
459
00:26:26,979 –> 00:26:32,259
[Don Ezra]: think it’s that psychological aspect of risk being able to translate investment
460
00:26:32,419 –> 00:26:33,939
[Don Ezra]: risk into lifestyle
461
00:26:35,239 –> 00:26:36,239
[Don Ezra]: effects
462
00:26:36,020 –> 00:26:37,020
[Ramsey Smith]: but that
463
00:26:36,659 –> 00:26:40,899
[Don Ezra]: that that would then distinguish you from the vast majority
464
00:26:42,099 –> 00:26:45,939
[Don Ezra]: of others who are doing this because they are professionals they are very good
465
00:26:46,019 –> 00:26:50,659
[Don Ezra]: professionals they enjoy being professionals but they are only professionals and
466
00:26:50,739 –> 00:26:54,739
[Don Ezra]: experts and not relating to the client and i think
467
00:26:55,939 –> 00:26:57,379
[Don Ezra]: i i think that would make you stand
468
00:26:57,146 –> 00:26:58,146
[Paul Tyler]: yeah
469
00:26:57,239 –> 00:26:58,239
[Don Ezra]: apart
470
00:26:59,846 –> 00:27:01,126
[Paul Tyler]: i think you’re so right around
471
00:27:02,106 –> 00:27:03,106
[Paul Tyler]: risk equaling
472
00:27:04,086 –> 00:27:09,286
[Paul Tyler]: a psychological state of being for me this comes from my journey is home housing
473
00:27:09,346 –> 00:27:10,346
[Paul Tyler]: that’s kind of what
474
00:27:11,386 –> 00:27:12,386
[Paul Tyler]: my
475
00:27:11,700 –> 00:27:12,700
[Ramsey Smith]: see
476
00:27:13,686 –> 00:27:17,366
[Paul Tyler]: center point is okay do i have a house over my head will i have a house or my
477
00:27:17,366 –> 00:27:21,446
[Paul Tyler]: head don you mentioned time time seem to be important five years why why five
478
00:27:21,526 –> 00:27:23,046
[Paul Tyler]: years went up four one at six
479
00:27:22,399 –> 00:27:23,399
[Don Ezra]: oh i’ve
480
00:27:26,259 –> 00:27:29,459
[Don Ezra]: give a take a few years maybe hay somewhere around five
481
00:27:29,386 –> 00:27:30,386
[Paul Tyler]: yeah his
482
00:27:30,339 –> 00:27:35,459
[Don Ezra]: that’s that’s my approximation i mean i think the actual saving for retirement
483
00:27:35,539 –> 00:27:40,019
[Don Ezra]: you need at least twenty to twenty five years you can get started but twenty to
484
00:27:40,099 –> 00:27:44,099
[Don Ezra]: twenty five years ago you get serious and then you get set and all that kind of
485
00:27:43,719 –> 00:27:44,719
[Don Ezra]: stuff
486
00:27:46,099 –> 00:27:49,779
[Don Ezra]: and compound interest has enough time to work if you give it twenty twenty five
487
00:27:49,939 –> 00:27:51,299
[Don Ezra]: years because the base
488
00:27:50,940 –> 00:27:51,940
[Ramsey Smith]: wow
489
00:27:51,379 –> 00:27:55,859
[Don Ezra]: is relatively low in the early years and these are your best earning years etc so
490
00:27:56,099 –> 00:28:00,579
[Don Ezra]: i think that’s okay but all i’m i think all i’m saying five years was a number
491
00:28:00,739 –> 00:28:04,899
[Don Ezra]: that came into my head all i’m saying is that you ought to start thinking about
492
00:28:04,979 –> 00:28:07,459
[Don Ezra]: the psychological aspects the identity question
493
00:28:08,739 –> 00:28:14,099
[Don Ezra]: before you retire and usually it takes some time because it’s not an adjustment
494
00:28:14,179 –> 00:28:18,659
[Don Ezra]: you make overnight it’s a psychological adjustment it’s an adjustment to your
495
00:28:18,819 –> 00:28:23,779
[Don Ezra]: definition of who you are and that takes time five years i haven’t a clue i have
496
00:28:23,939 –> 00:28:25,619
[Don Ezra]: no clue you’re absolutely right yeah
497
00:28:27,139 –> 00:28:31,379
[Don Ezra]: and i think the other one forgive me the other one we haven’t touched on is the
498
00:28:31,539 –> 00:28:38,179
[Don Ezra]: activity rock which is how do i fill my time when i’m not working full time and
499
00:28:38,259 –> 00:28:42,019
[Don Ezra]: whether it’s volunteering a part time career carrying on et cetera there are a
500
00:28:42,099 –> 00:28:47,299
[Don Ezra]: whole bunch of things but there’s one aspect that my friends and even my kids’
501
00:28:47,119 –> 00:28:48,119
[Don Ezra]: generation
502
00:28:49,219 –> 00:28:51,219
[Don Ezra]: they were very amused by this and remembered it
503
00:28:52,579 –> 00:28:57,139
[Don Ezra]: there’s another aspect that’s very important if you have a life partner and that
504
00:28:57,219 –> 00:28:58,339
[Don Ezra]: is that there are two of you
505
00:28:59,379 –> 00:29:03,779
[Don Ezra]: and you are not just a couple you were also two two separate people and so
506
00:29:04,739 –> 00:29:09,619
[Don Ezra]: actually at my my my son’s my son’s wedding i i i i mentioned this to the gang
507
00:29:09,779 –> 00:29:13,779
[Don Ezra]: assemble there my son said say anything you like whatever you say will embarrass
508
00:29:13,779 –> 00:29:17,779
[Don Ezra]: me so just go ahead sorry i said okay so so here here are two circles
509
00:29:19,059 –> 00:29:23,379
[Don Ezra]: your set of interests and your partner set of interest and they have some overlap
510
00:29:24,339 –> 00:29:28,739
[Don Ezra]: and when you meet you notice the overlap and you get all soppy about it oh we
511
00:29:28,819 –> 00:29:33,139
[Don Ezra]: have so much in carbon et cetera et cetera et cetera and then later on you have
512
00:29:34,739 –> 00:29:38,819
[Don Ezra]: the outside bits sometimes if you have kids they get they get
513
00:29:40,179 –> 00:29:44,739
[Don Ezra]: the kids fill the the middle bit and you lose your chance to do your own outside
514
00:29:45,059 –> 00:29:49,779
[Don Ezra]: bit and then if with any luck the kids leave home one day you may find that the
515
00:29:49,859 –> 00:29:56,259
[Don Ezra]: middle overlapping bit is almost empty and that’s why again divorce goes up at
516
00:29:56,339 –> 00:30:02,019
[Don Ezra]: this kind of stage and so what you need to realize is that as i told them the
517
00:30:02,099 –> 00:30:06,339
[Don Ezra]: most romantic thing you can say to each other every anniversary as you hug each
518
00:30:06,419 –> 00:30:10,499
[Don Ezra]: other in kiss and express your love in whatever way you do if you can say in all
519
00:30:10,659 –> 00:30:15,059
[Don Ezra]: honesty to each other all the parts of our venn diagram are healthy
520
00:30:16,099 –> 00:30:19,699
[Don Ezra]: that is a very very romantic thing to say to each other if you can
521
00:30:19,500 –> 00:30:20,500
[Ramsey Smith]: sorry
522
00:30:20,099 –> 00:30:24,899
[Don Ezra]: and so you know the kids this but the whole idea of the venn diagram and keeping
523
00:30:25,139 –> 00:30:28,979
[Don Ezra]: all the parts of your venn diagram healthy in retirement not
524
00:30:28,740 –> 00:30:29,740
[Ramsey Smith]: just
525
00:30:29,219 –> 00:30:31,859
[Don Ezra]: just doing things together but doing things separately as well
526
00:30:32,899 –> 00:30:37,859
[Don Ezra]: is very very important because as i say until covid we didn’t have to spend our
527
00:30:38,099 –> 00:30:42,739
[Don Ezra]: time that much time together now we will have much more time together and so
528
00:30:42,899 –> 00:30:47,139
[Don Ezra]: getting that middle bit and allowing the fact that there are the two outer edges
529
00:30:46,839 –> 00:30:47,839
[Don Ezra]: as well
530
00:30:48,499 –> 00:30:53,379
[Don Ezra]: it’s perfectly legitimate for each person have their own outer edge and do their
531
00:30:53,459 –> 00:30:56,739
[Don Ezra]: own thing you don’t have to be a couple all the time you’re also two separate
532
00:30:56,819 –> 00:30:58,259
[Don Ezra]: people that’s very important
533
00:30:59,539 –> 00:31:03,699
[Don Ezra]: in planning your activities and that will also give a separate sense of purpose i
534
00:31:03,319 –> 00:31:04,319
[Don Ezra]: think
535
00:31:04,646 –> 00:31:09,126
[Paul Tyler]: and if we were to look at sort of the macro balance sheet for happiness and covid
536
00:31:09,206 –> 00:31:12,486
[Paul Tyler]: you kind of introduced it clearly disrupted a lot of people
537
00:31:13,526 –> 00:31:16,806
[Paul Tyler]: however i’ve seen studies and rams you i think i’m i’m sure if somebody’s
538
00:31:16,886 –> 00:31:18,566
[Paul Tyler]: mentioned this on our show or not where
539
00:31:20,086 –> 00:31:24,566
[Paul Tyler]: don you may know where they’ve done studies of people where they live where they
540
00:31:24,806 –> 00:31:29,046
[Paul Tyler]: work you know where their activities are and their life is the closer that
541
00:31:29,366 –> 00:31:34,806
[Paul Tyler]: cluster is in terms of sheer distance generally the happier are now clear some
542
00:31:34,826 –> 00:31:35,826
[Paul Tyler]: outliers people who
543
00:31:38,300 –> 00:31:39,300
[Ramsey Smith]: i think
544
00:31:38,486 –> 00:31:42,966
[Paul Tyler]: stayed together because they were not together but do you think this has brought
545
00:31:38,486 –> 00:31:42,966
[Paul Tyler]: stayed together because they were not together but do you think this has brought
546
00:31:43,206 –> 00:31:47,526
[Paul Tyler]: you know do you think happiness has gone up collectively as a result of kind of
547
00:31:43,206 –> 00:31:47,526
[Paul Tyler]: you know do you think happiness has gone up collectively as a result of kind of
548
00:31:47,846 –> 00:31:52,166
[Paul Tyler]: slowing down being all sort of parked and home or or you you couldn’t say
549
00:31:47,846 –> 00:31:52,166
[Paul Tyler]: slowing down being all sort of parked and home or or you you couldn’t say
550
00:31:52,259 –> 00:31:57,219
[Don Ezra]: i have absolutely no idea whatsoever this is something i would wait to see the
551
00:31:57,299 –> 00:32:01,779
[Don Ezra]: united nations happiness survey they do a survey every year and i would wait to
552
00:32:01,779 –> 00:32:05,299
[Don Ezra]: see the results and see not only is it gone up or down but are there some
553
00:32:05,379 –> 00:32:08,499
[Don Ezra]: countries where it’s gone up and somewhere it’s gone down etc and then see what
554
00:32:08,579 –> 00:32:10,979
[Don Ezra]: you learn from that i have i have absolutely no idea
555
00:32:12,019 –> 00:32:16,019
[Don Ezra]: but but i think it’s brought the notion that we are
556
00:32:16,100 –> 00:32:17,100
[Ramsey Smith]: i am
557
00:32:17,059 –> 00:32:18,419
[Don Ezra]: two people as well as a couple
558
00:32:19,439 –> 00:32:20,439
[Don Ezra]: um to the four
559
00:32:21,459 –> 00:32:25,699
[Don Ezra]: because we’ve been forced to confront that and for some people this is good and
560
00:32:25,779 –> 00:32:26,979
[Don Ezra]: for some people it’s not good
561
00:32:28,560 –> 00:32:35,600
[Ramsey Smith]: so you’ve now in this in this new chapter you you’re evangelizing this very
562
00:32:35,840 –> 00:32:40,080
[Ramsey Smith]: important these is very important concepts you’ve written written a book well
563
00:32:40,240 –> 00:32:44,880
[Ramsey Smith]: long book and then and a shorter version of it and you’ve got your blog how much
564
00:32:44,960 –> 00:32:50,640
[Ramsey Smith]: is this going to continue to be part of your activity to to spread this to spread
565
00:32:50,720 –> 00:32:53,200
[Ramsey Smith]: this knowledge in this philosophy sort of more broadly
566
00:32:54,259 –> 00:33:00,099
[Don Ezra]: oh i i love it i’m absolutely pathetic at selling always have been which is why i
567
00:33:00,319 –> 00:33:01,319
[Don Ezra]: became a consultant
568
00:33:02,339 –> 00:33:07,779
[Don Ezra]: and so i have no idea how to propagate this so i write for my own benefit
569
00:33:07,900 –> 00:33:08,900
[Ramsey Smith]: i like
570
00:33:08,579 –> 00:33:10,499
[Don Ezra]: i write to explain something to myself
571
00:33:10,340 –> 00:33:11,340
[Ramsey Smith]: i
572
00:33:11,239 –> 00:33:12,239
[Don Ezra]: i find that
573
00:33:11,780 –> 00:33:12,780
[Ramsey Smith]: think about
574
00:33:12,179 –> 00:33:14,419
[Don Ezra]: if you think about something and you think you know it
575
00:33:14,580 –> 00:33:15,580
[Ramsey Smith]: you watch
576
00:33:15,139 –> 00:33:19,459
[Don Ezra]: until you actually write it down you don’t really know it because writing slows
577
00:33:19,539 –> 00:33:25,779
[Don Ezra]: you down and you don’t go from a to d to m to x you go a b c d and suddenly you
578
00:33:25,859 –> 00:33:29,539
[Don Ezra]: find my god i may never get to m it because the logic is taking me somewhere else
579
00:33:29,779 –> 00:33:34,259
[Don Ezra]: so i write for myself so i write in the first person i because i’m doing the
580
00:33:34,499 –> 00:33:39,619
[Don Ezra]: explaining and the person i’m writing to is also myself that’s the i’ve got two
581
00:33:39,619 –> 00:33:43,939
[Don Ezra]: bodies i’m i’m the speaker and the listener and so when i say you that’s also me
582
00:33:43,879 –> 00:33:44,879
[Don Ezra]: and
583
00:33:44,020 –> 00:33:45,020
[Ramsey Smith]: work
584
00:33:44,499 –> 00:33:48,739
[Don Ezra]: then i write that stuff and at the end i see have i understood this or not have i
585
00:33:48,899 –> 00:33:54,099
[Don Ezra]: have i encountered a block or not so i just write for myself and when friends say
586
00:33:54,339 –> 00:33:58,419
[Don Ezra]: this is good stuff that got me started on you know put it together in a book et
587
00:33:58,419 –> 00:34:04,499
[Don Ezra]: cetera et cetera et cetera and so the fulfillment i get from from the website is
588
00:34:04,279 –> 00:34:05,279
[Don Ezra]: that every
589
00:34:04,660 –> 00:34:05,660
[Ramsey Smith]: years
590
00:34:05,139 –> 00:34:07,219
[Don Ezra]: now and again i don’t know every few months
591
00:34:07,180 –> 00:34:08,180
[Ramsey Smith]: so you
592
00:34:07,539 –> 00:34:11,539
[Don Ezra]: someone will write to me and say you know i’m in australia i’m in south africa
593
00:34:11,859 –> 00:34:15,619
[Don Ezra]: i’ve just done this i’ve just done that and you helped me enormously in this and
594
00:34:15,699 –> 00:34:19,299
[Don Ezra]: someone else once told me it was like being hit in the head by a two
595
00:34:18,986 –> 00:34:19,986
[Paul Tyler]: eight
596
00:34:19,459 –> 00:34:24,419
[Don Ezra]: by four i really have to do this and never realize it etc and those those are my
597
00:34:24,239 –> 00:34:25,239
[Don Ezra]: rewards
598
00:34:26,019 –> 00:34:27,539
[Don Ezra]: that that to me is the
599
00:34:27,466 –> 00:34:28,466
[Paul Tyler]: thank
600
00:34:27,619 –> 00:34:33,059
[Don Ezra]: feedback that says oh my god you’ve helped someone somewhere and i don’t know how
601
00:34:33,139 –> 00:34:36,659
[Don Ezra]: many people in my pension consulting career i actually
602
00:34:36,780 –> 00:34:37,780
[Ramsey Smith]: do you
603
00:34:36,979 –> 00:34:43,139
[Don Ezra]: helped i i may have helped institutions i did not help people and my life is now
604
00:34:43,699 –> 00:34:48,019
[Don Ezra]: people oriented as opposed to institution oriented my focus has changed from
605
00:34:48,179 –> 00:34:51,139
[Don Ezra]: institutional investing and finance to individual
606
00:34:51,980 –> 00:34:52,980
[Ramsey Smith]: i don’t know
607
00:34:52,099 –> 00:34:58,339
[Don Ezra]: investing in finance and happiness and that’s that’s in a way my my my purpose
608
00:34:58,380 –> 00:34:59,380
[Ramsey Smith]: oh that
609
00:34:59,619 –> 00:35:00,899
[Don Ezra]: and and that as i say
610
00:35:02,499 –> 00:35:07,219
[Don Ezra]: that will that i hope will create some kind of emotional legacy that goes beyond
611
00:35:07,379 –> 00:35:10,819
[Don Ezra]: family and friends to people who read it and say my god that really helped i
612
00:35:10,979 –> 00:35:16,099
[Don Ezra]: really like that thank you and that’s that’s my reward and i’m i’m absolutely
613
00:35:16,179 –> 00:35:21,779
[Don Ezra]: thrilled with it and if if the book doesn’t sell i really don’t care i mean
614
00:35:21,500 –> 00:35:22,500
[Ramsey Smith]: hm
615
00:35:22,179 –> 00:35:25,939
[Don Ezra]: once as far as i’m concerned i mean i had a best selling book pension fund
616
00:35:26,019 –> 00:35:30,019
[Don Ezra]: excellence that’s sold ten thousand plus copies which is an awful lot in these
617
00:35:30,099 –> 00:35:32,259
[Don Ezra]: terms my my happiness and and
618
00:35:32,180 –> 00:35:33,180
[Ramsey Smith]: smoke
619
00:35:32,499 –> 00:35:37,859
[Don Ezra]: and life two books have each sold a thousand plus copies and if it hits a
620
00:35:37,939 –> 00:35:40,259
[Don Ezra]: thousand i’ve been absolutely thrilled with that
621
00:35:40,666 –> 00:35:41,666
[Paul Tyler]: i
622
00:35:40,819 –> 00:35:45,299
[Don Ezra]: totally thrilled that’s a success to me best seller list hell no not a chance
623
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[Don Ezra]: forget it but that’s not the goal the goal is self satisfaction in learning
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[Don Ezra]: in being able to keep learning and to explain and every now and again something
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00:35:57,299 –> 00:36:00,899
[Don Ezra]: gets through to someone that’s m that’s my that’s my reward
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[Paul Tyler]: oh this is great now the book is called life two love the title we will put a
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00:36:05,926 –> 00:36:10,886
[Paul Tyler]: link in our show notes and we i know don will sell a few more for you so
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[Paul Tyler]: love
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[Don Ezra]: thank you
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00:36:12,326 –> 00:36:14,166
[Paul Tyler]: to put a zero on that but you know we’ll look
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[Don Ezra]: thank you
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00:36:15,046 –> 00:36:18,726
[Paul Tyler]: think i don’t ramsay any what are your final thoughts or questions for don
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00:36:19,280 –> 00:36:23,760
[Ramsey Smith]: no i think we i think we i think we covered it i think we covered the the key
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00:36:23,920 –> 00:36:27,920
[Ramsey Smith]: elements there’s really this existential link between
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[Ramsey Smith]: quality of life issues identity activity and
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[Ramsey Smith]: money decisions and money happiness and and that’s really where we really really
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[Ramsey Smith]: nailed that today so thanks thanks for coming don
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00:36:39,986 –> 00:36:40,986
[Paul Tyler]: yeah dawn
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[Don Ezra]: my pleasure my pleasure you made this very may i say you’ve made this very easy
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[Don Ezra]: for me i am a i i do this a lot but i am a very very very nervous performer and
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00:36:50,819 –> 00:36:53,219
[Don Ezra]: you have made this an absolute joy thank you
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00:36:52,586 –> 00:36:53,586
[Paul Tyler]: oh no thank
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[Ramsey Smith]: our pleasure
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00:36:53,846 –> 00:36:58,326
[Paul Tyler]: thank you our pleasure and uh all our listeners thanks for listening check out
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00:36:58,226 –> 00:36:59,226
[Paul Tyler]: the show notes
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00:37:00,566 –> 00:37:04,326
[Paul Tyler]: buy the book look at the website reach out to don we’ll put some links here and
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00:37:04,486 –> 00:37:08,086
[Paul Tyler]: join us again next week for another episode of that annuity show
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